Philadelphia Gun Law any update?

[danielbui]

hey guys, i was just wondering if there is any update cc in philly with an AZ license. is it still illegal?

[theshadow]

short and smart but answer is No, and it never was.

More accurate lengthy reply. The PA AG has set reciprocity, and issued the opinion that carrying on an out of state license is 100% legal. The Commonwealth also has preemption which states Philly can not make it's own laws on this matter. Now Philly may try to enforce their unlawful ordinance, but first person arrested will have standing which will cause the law to be struck down by the courts, and the individual to continue to have a clean record. Odds are Philly will never enforce the ordinance because they don't want someone to have standing, in order to keep it on the books.


Bottom line, it's not illegal, but you may be arrested for it anyway.

[danielbui]

ok got it. does anyone know if anyone was arrested for this yet?

[gbrown221]

hey guys, i was just wondering if there is any update cc in philly with an AZ license. is it still illegal?

it doesn't apply to you as you are not a resident of PA. the illegal philadelphia ordinance only applies to residents of PA.

philly is accepting a Utah CFP though if you are concerned you could look at obtaining a Utah CFP.

[gbrown221]

ok got it. does anyone know if anyone was arrested for this yet?

no one to my knowledge has been charged yet with it.

[gbrown221]

What exactly do you think would happen if one was stopped with a non-res license? Would they confiscate your firearm, license, and arrest you? Would they just fine you $300.00 and send you on your way? Could they really send you to jail for 90 days? I find it hard to understand them putting forth a law that they know they can't enforce. They must have told their officers what to do if they stop someone with a non-res license. Do those officers know that if they arrest someone and give them standing in a court of law, that the law will likely be struck down and thrown out? Is the law put out there as just a scare tactic?
I carry on my FL LTCF and will continue to do so, but these questions have been rolling around in my head.

Tmygun:-)

Tmygun: You may want to consider a Non Resident Permit such as Utah that meats Philly's BS ordinance. Having talked to a few higher ups in the PPD I can tell you that they believe their hands are tied also as they know the AG's position and the reciprocity agreements and on the otherhand the PPD is charged with enforcing the ordinances passed by City Council.

In answer to your question. They could cite you, but only a judge could order paying 300 dollars and incarcerating you after being found guilty in Philadelphia Municipal Court. You would also be entitled to a trial denovo in Common Pleas Court where a real judge at a court of record would hear your case. I totally can understand the City putting forth a law they can't enforce. It's the City of Philadelphia. They love wasting taxpayer money pushing their anti gun agenda and spending taxpayer money defending the City after a citizens rights get trampled on. I believe their is a line item in the budget for all this waste of money :-)

[Pizza Bob]

it doesn't apply to you as you are not a resident of PA. the illegal philadelphia ordinance only applies to residents of PA.

philly is accepting a Utah CFP though if you are concerned you could look at obtaining a Utah CFP.

This is incorrect. The draft version of this ordinance only applied to PA residents. The version that passed applies to both PA residents and non-residents carrying on permits from states other than those in which they reside.

Furthermore, a UT CCW is no better than any other non-resident license (from states with PA reciprocity). If you read the ordinance the state permits mentioned (UT among them) only come into play after review by a competent court (which means post-arrest). At that point the law would be declared illegal, based on pre-emption - so you are no better protected with a UT permit (or any other of the ones named in the ordinance) than with any state's license with which PA has reciprocity.

The whole thing is moot since the law is unenforceable - although it could be a costly hassle to get Philly to recognize that.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

[gbrown221]

This is incorrect. The draft version of this ordinance only applied to PA residents. The version that passed applies to both PA residents and non-residents carrying on permits from states other than those in which they reside.

Furthermore, a UT CCW is no better than any other non-resident license (from states with PA reciprocity). If you read the ordinance the state permits mentioned (UT among them) only come into play after review by a competent court (which means post-arrest). At that point the law would be declared illegal, based on pre-emption - so you are no better protected with a UT permit (or any other of the ones named in the ordinance) than with any state's license with which PA has reciprocity.

The whole thing is moot since the law is unenforceable - although it could be a costly hassle to get Philly to recognize that.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Pizza Bob:

does anyone have the final ordinance to post. I was pretty sure they listed the states they would accept to include Utah and Louisianna and a few other. I also thought the final ordinance did not apply to non residents but could be wrong.

how could Phila expect this to be enforcable to non residents who are relying on the AG reciprocity agreements?

another example of philly f ing things up. the new slogan for philadelphia city council and mayor. "if it aint broke we will break it"

[kadar]

http://legislation.phila.gov/attachments/11105.pdf

(2)(b) is ridiculous. You have to be actively engaged and in imminent danger.

In (3), is Philly saying that once we deny you in court, you can not appeal it any further?

[Kurt_D]

http://legislation.phila.gov/attachments/11105.pdf

(2)(b) is ridiculous. You have to be actively engaged and in imminent danger.

The way I read that para is that it supersedes 2a when you are defending yourself. i.e. if you have no PA LTCF but have one from a reciprocal state, if you are defending yourself, Para; 2a doesn't apply.

In (3), is Philly saying that once we deny you in court, you can not appeal it any further?

That's not how I read it. It looks like if THEY have exhausted all THEIR possible appeals in prosecuting an individual then anyone who is carrying under a license/permit from one of the listed states shall NOT be prohibited from carrying in Philthydelphia. It's still BS and shouldn't EVER get beyond the first court session (but, it's Philthy so that would be up for grabs).

It also appears that the ordinance does NOT apply to residents of states that HAVE reciprocity with PA so, that would (illegally) eliminate a NJ resident with a FL or AZ permit from carrying in Philthy. e.g. a resident of AZ w/ an AZ permit would be OK in Philthy but a NJ resident w/ an AZ permit would not.

Bottom line is that if anyone were ever to be arrested and charged under that POS ordinance, any court, in its right mind, would immediately rule that it is in violation of the UFA and strike it down - but again, who knows.