Court House Municpal building Philadelphia CC question

[amagi]

I was eating lunch in Philly today and needed to get cash from an ATM in a municipal Building. The building had multiple departments, and one of the rooms said "Court Room".

I know I am legally bared from Carrying in a county court house like the court house in Media, but this building was open access to the public. I strolled in, on a Sunday, to use a credit union ATM. I didn't think I was legally bared from carrying. I was wondering if the UFA applied to this Municpal building that may have a court room in it?

Thanks

[tl_3237]

I was eating lunch in Philly today and needed to get cash from an ATM in a municipal Building. The building had multiple departments, and one of the rooms said "Court Room".

I know I am legally bared from Carrying in a county court house like the court house in Media, but this building was open access to the public. I strolled in, on a Sunday, to use a credit union ATM. I didn't think I was legally bared from carrying. I was wondering if the UFA applied to this Municpal building that may have a court room in it?

Thanks

The law doesn't specify court BUILDINGS but court FACILITIES:

18 Pa CSA 913

(a) Offense defined.--A person commits an offense if he:

(1) knowingly possesses a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a court facility or knowingly causes a firearm or other dangerous weapon to be present in a court facility;

(f) Definitions.--As used in this section, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings given to them in this subsection:

"Court facility." The courtroom of a court of record; a courtroom of a community court; the courtroom of a magisterial district judge; a courtroom of the Philadelphia Municipal Court; a courtroom of the Pittsburgh Magistrates Court; a courtroom of the Traffic Court of Philadelphia; judge's chambers; witness rooms; jury deliberation rooms; attorney conference rooms; prisoner holding cells; offices of court clerks, the district attorney, the sheriff and probation and parole officers; and any adjoining corridors

.

Although I'm not aware of any case law on the proper scope of 'adjoining corridors', it would seem that many court venues interpret it very liberally to the point of making the entire building off-limits.

In your instance since you could see the 'Court Room", and assuming that it is used for that signed purpose, you were in an 'adjoining corridor' and in violation IF there was the proper signage designating the area or other notification:

18 Pa CSA 913
(d) Posting of notice.--Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each courthouse or other building containing a court facility and each court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a)(1) with respect to a court facility if the notice was not so posted at each public entrance to the courthouse or other building containing a court facility and at the court facility unless the person had actual notice of the provisions of subsection (a).

P.S. The 913 statute is not part of the UFA (Chap 61) but is instead in Inchoate Crimes (Chapter 9)

[gbrown221]

Philly City Hall has the same issue. Metal Detectors at the City Council Chambers floor with a big sign that is posted stating that NO LOCKERS AVAILABLE. Philadephia City Hall which does have Cival Courts in it and the Office of the Prothonotary to name a few directs people across the street to the Criminal Justics Center. If you search this forum you will see a previous thread about it.

[Statkowski]

Both Philly City Hall and the unnamed municipal building are in violation of Section 913 since the statute requires both signage at all public entrances and storage facilities:

18 Pa.C.S. § 913: Possession of firearm or other dangerous weapon in court facility

(d) Posting of notice.--Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each courthouse or other building containing a court facility and each court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a)(1) with respect to a court facility if the notice was not so posted at each public entrance to the courthouse or other building containing a court facility and at the court facility unless the person had actual notice of the provisions of subsection (a).
(e) Facilities for checking firearms or other dangerous weapons.--Each county shall make available at or within the building containing a court facility by July 1, 2002, lockers or similar facilities at no charge or cost for the temporary checking of firearms by persons carrying firearms under section 6106(b) or 6109 or for the checking of other dangerous weapons that are not otherwise prohibited by law. Any individual checking a firearm, dangerous weapon or an item deemed to be a dangerous weapon at a court facility must be issued a receipt. Notice of the location of the facility shall be posted as required under subsection (d).

"Although I'm not aware of any case law on the proper scope of 'adjoining corridors', it would seem that many court venues interpret it very liberally to the point of making the entire building off-limits."

Minich v. Jefferson County (http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPost...06_3-14-07.pdf) is an Appeals Court ruling that covers such an issue. It basically says if they want to make the entire building off-limits they may.

Bottom Line: If the building contains a "court facility" (as defined in Section 913), all or part of it will be off-limits. However, if it's off-limits, they have to post signs announcing such, and they have to provide storage facilities. Across the street doesn't cut it.

[gbrown221]

Philadelphia does NOT care what the law is unfortunately.

[tl_3237]

Both Philly City Hall and the unnamed municipal building are in violation of Section 913 since the statute requires both signage at all public entrances and storage facilities:

"Although I'm not aware of any case law on the proper scope of 'adjoining corridors', it would seem that many court venues interpret it very liberally to the point of making the entire building off-limits."

Minich v. Jefferson County (http://www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPost...06_3-14-07.pdf) is an Appeals Court ruling that covers such an issue. It basically says if they want to make the entire building off-limits they may.

Bottom Line: If the building contains a "court facility" (as defined in Section 913), all or part of it will be off-limits. However, if it's off-limits, they have to post signs announcing such, and they have to provide storage facilities. Across the street doesn't cut it.

I've seen Minich before but it does not deal with posting an entire building off-limits when it contains a court facility. In that instance there was a court facility off a common 1st floor corridor:

The Jefferson County Court House has a front and rear public entrance, both leading to the first floor. (R.R. at 81a.) The first floor hallway passes by the District Court, the Assessor’s Office, the Tax Claim Office, the Prothonotary’s Office/Clerk of Courts and the Office of the Register and Recorder/Clerk of Orphan’s Court. (R.R. at 81a-82a.)

and therefore all 1st floor entrances, and hence the entire building de facto, became rightfully(?) 'sterilized'.

What I questioned is the statute's use of 'corridor' and how many connecting non-court corridors leading to the court corridor can be 'sterilized'. Every court corridor has to connect directly or indirectly to an entrance thus begging the question - how far from the court facility's proximate corridor can the 'sterile' area extend? I know of no case law dealing with this question.

What of buildings when the entrance floor does NOT have a court facility but there are facilities on upper floors. In all cases the law requires signage at the building's entrances but the checkpoint would arguably have to be such that it permits unfettered access to offices on the entrance floor and presumably others below the floor having the lowest court facility.

An interesting side issue is that the law requires signage at the building's entrance AND at the individual court facilities. For multi-story buildings this, would require at a minimum signage at every floor containing a court facility IMO.

[amagi]

Thanks for the information guys.

Bassiclaly I got the jist of it. Adjoining Corridors means that the entire building can be off limits, however there defintely were no posted signs desginating that I was explicitily not allowed to carry a gun in the building.

Also, there was no one to check my firearm, or any signs designating where I could go to check my firearm in the same facitily or building as the court facility.

It isn't like Philadelphia respects what the law is anyway. I always CC when I am in philly. I have a nice blackhawk lvl 2 holster that I use when I plan on OCing, but in philly I always use my Cross Breed Super Tuck.

Thanks Again.

[lourendo]

I came across these messages because i need to go into the the municipal services building tomorrow. As i understand it, they will have a method for me to check my firearm so that i will be allowed to enter the building and conduct my business. what if they do not comply with this regulation? am i out of luck? is my trip into the city wasted? do you think i will be hassled by the police or even arrested if i attempt to check my ccw? thanks, Louis