Lower Providence Rod & Gun Club?

[dgg9]

Now look at the classes as an opporinity for the club to get to know you as a shooter in a controlled environment so that they know you aren't the guy who likes to pick up his magazines while the person next to you is reloading their gun that's pointed at your head.

It seems a bit much, eh? The facilites dictate it to some extent. There are no partitions at LPRGC. So if you get forgetful, or make a mistake, you put the lives of other members at stake.

Again, again, again -- we're at cross purposes. You're arguing for the need for training. I'm not disputing that. If the need is for verified training, then any reasonable equivalency test -- as given by anyone with a trained eye -- will do. Also, a diploma from ANY weekend tactical pistol course will verify everything you say needs validation.

What you perhaps don't know is that their class is not different or special -- it's a milder, watered down version of what all the training houses put out. When you take ANY pistol course out there, you will not get a certificate -- indeed, you will be booted swiftly -- if you display unsafe gunhandling. Hence, having one or more certificates from training schools is prima facie evidence of safe gun-handling, which can be verified by anyone with even a moderately trained eye, in about 15 minutes.

So, when they force you to take their class, regardless of your training cv, then it's simply offensive to people who are trained well beyond their basic class. It's clear they either are trying to extort cash from me, else they have a completely unmerited parochialism. As I said, it's just as if you had graduated college, and in order to belong to some library, they forced you to take their version of 6th grade all over again.

[dgg9]

I'm not, it's just that their class serves to do both: educate and detect irresponsible behavior.

Then that's what "conflating" means. There is no rational reason to do both, except if they're trying to pump money from my pockets into theirs.

[PisnNapalm]

I recently joined the club myself. I had been to and checked out other clubs in the area as well. But in the end I selected LPRGC because of the rules.

I took the initial range evaluation along with 7 other people. Only 4 of us passed and were certified to use the indoor range. I saw some scary weapon handling during that session.

Also during that session I received some tips about my grip and stance. The instructors are very willing to help.

I'm not a beginner when it comes to handguns but I'm not any where near an expert either. I had enrolled in the Basic Pistol class they offer. It is $75 for 2 class sessions. I look at it as money well spent. I will get one on one instruction from a very experienced shooter.

I can see how an already experienced shooter might be put off by the club requirements and such, but as someone who values his life... I'm glad they make everyone go through the same routine.

...just my 2 cents.

[Mikul]

Guys, I could go on with this for weeks and it won't make any difference. Either take their classes and have fun shooting and learning something new, or drive somewhere where you don't need permission. You can complain online about it all that you want, but it isn't going to help you shoot any better.

LPRGC's schedule, pricing, location, and 1950's decor may not be for you, but I don't see any reason to bash them for not changing their rules for you.

[dgg9]

Guys, I could go on with this for weeks and it won't make any difference. Either take their classes and have fun shooting and learning something new, or drive somewhere where you don't need permission.

Completely false alternatives.

[Mikul]

Completely false alternatives.

What is your other alternative?

Out of curiosity... would you take their classes to shoot Action if they didn't cost you anything?

[Mikul]

Then that's what "conflating" means. There is no rational reason to do both, except if they're trying to pump money from my pockets into theirs.

Actually, the reason they do both is because there isn't manpower to handle the problems separately. If there had to be both an Action class and a Basic Pistol and PP class, one of them would be dropped.

It's part of the joy of an all-volunteer organization.

[dgg9]

What is your other alternative?

I'll give a straighforward analogy. You have a PhD in English Lit. You apply for a job that requires a high school level of English reading/writing skills.

If your prospective employer is reasonable, your college PhD diploma should be a credential taken at face value, since it represents evidence that your skill levels at English are far, far beyond what the job calls for.

If your prospective employer is less reasonable but has angst, then they can put together some sort of quick equivalency test that proves your have the high school level of English. It would be a quick test, whose results are definitive.

If your prospective employer is completely unreasonable, he'll demand that you take high school English all over again, at great time and expense, at his own school.

If you were that PhD, what would YOUR response be at the third option? Probably a contemptuous obscenity, right?

Well, many of us feel the same way, since the analogy is spot-on.

Out of curiosity... would you take their classes to shoot Action if they didn't cost you anything?

No, because time is money, and also, time is life. I'm not going to throw away any significant amount of time on nonsense I already know, and have already demonstrated many times over. I might take a short test, but no more than that.

[dgg9]

Actually, the reason they do both is because there isn't manpower to handle the problems separately.

Sorry, but that's completely illogical. They don't have time precisely because they're wasting time on a full-day class when a 15 minute test accomplishes the same thing. IOW, it's their own foolish inefficiency that is wasting time. You could save significant class time by pre-emptive testing....unless of course the motive isn't time at all, but the desire to push over-priced classes.

Second, and more fundamental: I don't care "why" they have illogical and offensive policies. The reasons are interesting but not especially important. Every bad policy has "reasons." Heck, they could be 100% well-intentioned (though I doubt it). It doesn't matter WHY they have this unacceptable policy -- it's still unacceptable. I will not be forced to wait huge amounts of delay, spend days in classes and spend relatively large amounts of money to be bum-rushed through a class that is way below my level. I don't care why they feel it's necessary, since I KNOW its not necessary. End of story. My training dollars and weekends are reserved for classes that move me forward.

ETA: I'll simplify things: if, for whatever reason, your range needs to verify skill level, then either credentials or a test is a quick and reliable way of doing it. Since it's quicker than forcing people through their own classes, then the "they don't have time" excuse is refuted. Since there is no rational, defensible excuse for their policy, I am forced to assume its existence is a) to extort more money from members and/or b) to enforce some sort of "not invented here" provincialism. But the stated reasons are obviously nonsense.

And proof that the policy is offensive and counter-productive is that the people the club should most want -- the safest and most well-trained members -- are turned off and don't join.

[Mikul]

No, because time is money, and also, time is life. I'm not going to throw away any significant amount of time on nonsense I already know, and have already demonstrated many times over. I might take a short test, but no more than that.

How far should they bend over for you?