Lower Providence Rod & Gun Club?

[PA Rifleman]

... Plus, the guys I dealt with were arrogant and rude. I got the impression that they thought they were God's gift to the shooting world and there was no way I was going to be allowed to shoot with them in their kingdom unless I learned how from them....

I had several other direct experiences that mirrored other posts here, so I felt my resources would be better directed elsewhere. Some people do well at LPRG, good for them and I wish them well. I have absolutely no interest in LPRG, and I count myself very fortunate that I lost nothing in the process of learning.

[MarcS]

That attitude is pretty common, actually, in ranges. Every instructor in every Podunk range thinks only he and his class passes muster. Combine that with a clear motivation to push over-priced classes.

I'm no fan of LPRGC. Talked to their guys at a gun show booth, was told of all the great things i could do there. however, Between getting approved for membership, taking their mandatory classes and all their BS, it was going to be 9 months and nearly $400 until i could so much as draw from a holster there. My very extensive and distinguished training resume was dismissed as irrelevant.

Don's hered this story from me before.

[dgg9]

Don's hered this story from me before.

Yeah -- I know Marc's had at least 6 days of pistol training from the Tactical Response(*) crew just that I know of, and probably more.

I had a similar experience trying to take a class at Target Master: no way would they let you take their 4th CCW class (in reality, low-mid tier in level -- about the level of a decent IDPA stage) if you don't take their, and only their, beginner's classes. Um, no thanks.

What's interesting is that the higher-level the trainer, the more he would be justified in insisting on NIH -- but the more rational they are about reasonable credential equivalency. And the lower-tier the trainers are, the more petty they are about their turf: "your PhD from Cornell doesn't let you take my kindergarten class unless you've been to MY nursery school!"

If all they're really worried about is safety, then fine -- demand a quick test. It shouldn't take long. You can see if someone is squared away in 5 minutes, if you know what to look for.

* ETA: supporting my point, I was able to take TR's advanced pistol 2 day course without their basic 2 day course, because they were very reasonable about credentials.

[MarcS]

I had actually taken seven different classes with tactical response at that time and even offered to take LPRGC's "final exam" cold, right there at the meeting. no luck. I was there with my training partner who has taken nearly as much professional training as i have, was an NRA instructor in 5 diciplines and a RSO with $1,000,000 in NRA instructor liability insurance and they still gave us a no go. They wanted us to take basic pistol and personal protection first. If they won't be reasonable, ts for them. They don't get my money.

[sometimes]

I am a two year member of LPR&GC. I took the Basic Pistol and Personal Protection courses there last year. When I first inquired about how to get qualified to shoot action pistol I was very put off by the requirements to take Basic and PP again since I had taken them from a different NRA qualified instructor. In fact I asked specifically why, after explaining I had taken both courses recently and had the certificates to prove it. The person looked me in the eye and said, ‘If you are going to be standing behind me with a loaded pistol on you, I want to know I can trust you.”

I liked that answer. Although he didn’t say so, I also suspect that the insurance carrier for the club makes it an absolute requirement.

So I decided to suck it up and take the courses. In these cases I always figure there will be something new I can learn. In fact, I didn’t waste my money taking the LPR&GC courses. I wasted my money taking the original courses.

The basic course is very practical and provides one-on-one instruction while you are on the firing line. So if you can already hit the 10 ring from 7 yds the instructor will work on more advanced skills and techniques with you personally. Perhaps if you are an expert, all you will get is a bit of range time for your money.

The Personal Protection course was outstanding. In fact if the instructors had been paid it would have cost significantly more. Once again, always one-on-one when you were on the firing line. You must bring a holster – my first course didn’t require draw from a holster even once.

The legal portion of the PP course was given by an active duty street cop. He was a real character and we had an incredably interesting class on the law and the practical aspects of carrying concealed. Just this portion was worth what I paid.

In addition to practicing drawing from the holster and shooting in low light, under stress, and around barracades on the indoor range, we also had a morning on the outdoor range. There we had a drywall wall section to shoot through to show penetration of various weapons. We got to shoot shotguns (owned by the same LEO that gave the legal portion) through the wall with various loads from birdshot to slugs. We also shot water filled jugs.

As far as arrogant goes, most of these guys are not in my opinion. There is one rather obvious exception and I just keep my distance. I have not met anyone who will not help when you have a question (including Mr. Arrogant). In fact about six months after last year’s course there were a number of new guys shooting Action Pistol one Tuesday and two instructors spent time giving some pointers while everyone else waited to shoot. No one complained or said anything even remotely negative.

I can understand why an experience shooter would be put off by having to prove themselves doing the basics. All I can say is that as a result of the approach LPR&GC takes I am comfortable with the guys I shoot with. As a Target World member, I can tell you I won’t go anywhere near that place on a weekend or holiday – too many Mall Ninjas for me. Too bad some of you had a bad experience with an arrogant someone at the club. Shooting Action Pistol on Tuesday nights is a hoot! Hope this helps.

[dgg9]

I can understand why an experience shooter would be put off by having to prove themselves doing the basics. All I can say is that as a result of the approach LPR&GC takes I am comfortable with the guys I shoot with. As a Target World member, I can tell you I won’t go anywhere near that place on a weekend or holiday – too many Mall Ninjas for me.

The shooting world is not precisely separated into untrained mall ninjas on one hand -- and LPR&GC students on the other.

In every other important area of life, reasonable credentialism equivalency happens: driver's licenses, doctor's certification, etc etc etc.

I completely understand if they want to require a basic level of assurance. But it is 100% bogus to demand that they, and only they, provide the class. That crosses the line from merely requiring something to insisting that they sell that something.

I understand your point, but absolutely nothing can justify their position.

In fact, I didn’t waste my money taking the LPR&GC courses. I wasted my money taking the original courses.

While I'm sure that Jeff Gonzales, Tom Givens, John Farnam, Gabe Suarez, Dave Spaulding, Andy Stanford, etc etc etc will be understandably disappointed to know they are offering a substandard curriculum as compared to LPR&GC, I guess I'll just have to settle for what I got and be happy with it. I am unworthy to enter the LPR&GC pantheon.

[MarcS]

If someone showed me that they had trained with any of the instructors Don mentioned (and a few more) i'd feel more than comfortable with them covering my six with a loaded firearm--and i'm not talking about just waiting their turn on a hot range. In fact, several times in training i've had people shooting over my shoulder and it was a non-issue.

[dgg9]

I When I first inquired about how to get qualified to shoot action pistol I was very put off by the requirements to take Basic and PP again since I had taken them from a different NRA qualified instructor.

Ok, let me clarify here, since my previous post may have come off as more snarky than necessary:

There are levels of training. More training, such that it keeps you moving up the ladder, is a good thing. If you have had only some NRA classes, then no question that a class that does some dynamic shooting, does some low-light, etc, will be a huge step up the ladder. I have no doubt that the LP classes made you a more capable shooter and gun handler than before.

All that's a good thing. The problem, though, is that on the scale of things, while their classes may sit above an NRA class, they sit either below, or AT BEST roughly equivalent to (though I highly doubt it), any of the all-weekend "fighting pistol" or "combative pistol" classes taught by all the upper-tier trainers.

As a rough analogy: if someone has taken X tactical pistol courses elsewhere, that's like asking someone with X post-graduate degrees to take high school over again. And I would think the trainers at LP have to know this as well. As such, I see only two possibilities:

1. The trainers at LP HAVE taken such classes from top-tier instructors themselves, yet still insist that you buy their product: then they either have delusional levels of elitism, else are simply looking to pump money from your pockets into theirs, regardless of merit, or
2. The trainers at LP HAVE NOT taken such classes from top-tier instructors themselves, in which case their opinions on the matter are instantly excluded from serious consideration.

[JLStorm]

I looked at the apartments I am moving into in about 2 weeks and they are around 1 mile from the club, it would save me hours of travel time to be able to shoot there. I dont really have a problem with taking the PP course or the basic course again, its the time I have trouble with. I travel during the week generally monday through friday and shoot one day a week most of the time. If these courses are something that are done over the course of a week, I think I am out of luck, but if they are done during the weekends I may consider it.

It is nice to know there are at least a few people who are down to earth there, I just couldnt believe how rudely I was treated a few years ago when I did live in that area and asked if there could be any alternative arrangements made for their thursday meeting criteria since I am away on business almost every thursday.

Sometimes, can you give me more of an idea of when the classes were scheduled and how many thursdays and at what times I would need to show up in order to be able to come on a saturday or sunday and shoot there?

Thanks.

[sometimes]

JLStorm,
From the recent newsletter:

Basic Pistol, which is a two night course is offered in April, May and June while Personal Protection, which involves three evenings and a Saturday morning, is offered in August and September. Opening are still available in the June Basic Pistol course (June 18th and 21st) and in the September Personal Protection course (Sep 18th, 24th, 27th and 29th).

Hope this fits with your schedule.