County/township Parks

[American1776]

I apologize if this has already been covered. I read through a lot of the past threads about county/township parks. I haven't seem to have gotten a 'final' verdict. Perhaps there are no final verdicts, yet.
Can I concealed carry in county/township parks? I live in Montgomery county, in Franconia Township. I know there has been a lot of hard work accomplished by members here, trying to get those park signs changed.

I will probably be visiting some parks this summer, and if anyone could give some advice, that'd be great.

Thanks.

[knight0334]

Yes. State preemption makes local ordinances null and void.

Here are the off-limits places in PA.
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...nsylvania.html

[American1776]

Yes. State preemption makes local ordinances null and void.

Here are the off-limits places in PA.
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...nsylvania.html

Thanks for the advice, and for the link

As an additional inquiry into the matter, I also wanted to ask if I would be arrested for carrying if there's a sign on one of the parks (even if the sign contains an illegal rule) prohibiting my right to carry?
I understand the pre-emption clause in state law of PA, but unfortunately it doesn't prevent law enforcement (who I respect greatly) from arresting you and then sorting things out downtown. It didn't seem to prevent a former Sheriff of Montco from announcing an illegal law prohibiting firearms in county parks.
Perhaps I'm overthinking things.

[knight0334]

Thanks for the advice, and for the link

As an additional inquiry into the matter, I also wanted to ask if I would be arrested for carrying if there's a sign on one of the parks (even if the sign contains an illegal rule) prohibiting my right to carry?
I understand the pre-emption clause in state law of PA, but unfortunately it doesn't prevent law enforcement (who I respect greatly) from arresting you and then sorting things out downtown. It didn't seem to prevent a former Sheriff of Montco from announcing an illegal law prohibiting firearms in county parks.
Perhaps I'm overthinking things.

You could be cited for breathing, but it doesn't mean the citation will be upheld in court.

With the parks thing, sure - you could be cited or arrested. And a local magistrate or county judge may even convict you. But it would not survive a state appeal. State law would prevail over the local ordinance. Preemption is established in statutory law and in a PA Supreme Court civil case(Ortiz v. Commonwealth, - Pa. - 545 Pa. 279, 681 A.2d 152 (1996)).

[CenterTree]

I apologize if this has already been covered. I read through a lot of the past threads about county/township parks. I haven't seem to have gotten a 'final' verdict. Perhaps there are no final verdicts, yet.
Can I concealed carry in county/township parks? I live in Montgomery county, in Franconia Township. I know there has been a lot of hard work accomplished by members here, trying to get those park signs changed.

I will probably be visiting some parks this summer, and if anyone could give some advice, that'd be great.

Thanks.

I was going to start a thread about this, but it seems this is a good place to put it too.

Saw this sign last week while at Duman's Dam County park near Strongstown off Rt 422.

I checked their website and apparently they ARE up to speed on the firearms regs there, yet they have NOT applied any current signage st the Lake/Park.

I would hope there wouldn't be an issue carrying there. Since it is a county park, it should be fine to OC there also. Am I correct?


http://www.fishandboat.com/fishpub/s...cproperty.html


Below is directly from their web site:

"The carrying or use of firearms on Fish & Boat Commission properties is prohibited except while lawfully hunting or trapping. This does not apply to those individuals licensed to carry firearms under 18 Pa. C.S. 6109 (licenses) or those individuals authorized to do so in conformance with 18 Pa. C.S. 6106 (firearms not to be carried without a license)."





.

[CenterTree]

You could be cited for breathing, but it doesn't mean the citation will be upheld in court.

With the parks thing, sure - you could be cited or arrested. And a local magistrate or county judge may even convict you. But it would not survive a state appeal. State law would prevail over the local ordinance. Preemption is established in statutory law and in a PA Supreme Court civil case(Ortiz v. Commonwealth, - Pa. - 545 Pa. 279, 681 A.2d 152 (1996)).

And THIS is where the law-abiding citizen gets screwed due to uninformed and/or renegade LEO and Judges. So the "victim" would have to still go through all that sh1t and pay the legal fees to "prove" that HE IS WITHIN HIS RIGHTS and THE LAW???

[American1776]

And THIS is where the law-abiding citizen gets screwed due to uninformed and/or renegade LEO and Judges. So the "victim" would have to still go through all that sh1t and pay the legal fees to "prove" that HE IS WITHIN HIS RIGHTS and THE LAW???

Yes, this is what worries me most. Worst case scenario: I carry my Sig P232 in a pocket holster, and an LE sees something 'printing', asks me to empty the pocket, sees the gun, and arrests me. Really, a nightmare for me (I have been an upstanding, do-right citizen, all my young life).
However, another nightmare for me is to be accosted by thugs who feel like messing up an unassuming guy out with his gf and doggy, and I would not have the ideal means (my Sig) for getting out of dodge because an illegal law says I am forbidden from exercising my rights.
I'm inclined to read state law preemption as the 'final verdict'. Anyone else have an opinion?

[illogicalmethods2]

Yes, this is what worries me most. Worst case scenario: I carry my Sig P232 in a pocket holster, and an LE sees something 'printing', asks me to empty the pocket, sees the gun, and arrests me. Really, a nightmare for me (I have been an upstanding, do-right citizen, all my young life).
However, another nightmare for me is to be accosted by thugs who feel like messing up an unassuming guy out with his gf and doggy, and I would not have the ideal means (my Sig) for getting out of dodge because an illegal law says I am forbidden from exercising my rights.
I'm inclined to read state law preemption as the 'final verdict'. Anyone else have an opinion?

State law is the final verdict, should some local town/municipality decide to deny your rights, lawyer up and SUE.

[zackattack784]

Yes, this is what worries me most. Worst case scenario: I carry my Sig P232 in a pocket holster, and an LE sees something 'printing', asks me to empty the pocket, sees the gun, and arrests me. Really, a nightmare for me (I have been an upstanding, do-right citizen, all my young life).
However, another nightmare for me is to be accosted by thugs who feel like messing up an unassuming guy out with his gf and doggy, and I would not have the ideal means (my Sig) for getting out of dodge because an illegal law says I am forbidden from exercising my rights.
I'm inclined to read state law preemption as the 'final verdict'. Anyone else have an opinion?

If you're that worried I'd just CC. Unless you're wearing something skin-tight, a P232 shouldn't print. I wouldn't worry about it.

[ByblosHex]

Please note the Pa Department of Natural Resources (DCNR) and Pa Fish & Boat Comission are not local governemtns or municpialites! They are Pa State Agencies and as such are not included in Pa.C.S. § 6120: Limitation on the regulation of firearms and ammunition. Therefor they are excluded from preemption and may regulate the possession and ownership of Firearms and Ammunicion. However, HB40 has added language to include them in also being preempted from regulating the ownership and possession of firearms. HB40 is not yet in effect at the time of this posting.