Denied PA LTCF, Florida?

[mauser]

Wasn't there a post on here a few months back where a guy was denied a firearm purchase because he was involuntarily committed? It gets in the system somehow I guess. Do doctors submit anything?

YES! Some doctors do report things.

There was an article in the newspaper a few years ago about someone in the Lebanon area who went to his doctor for whatever reason and the doctor asked him how much alcohol he drinks. The guy told the doc. that he drinks about a six pack a day. The doctor successfully petitioned to have the guy's driver's license revoked.
The guy worked a day shift job, good work history, clean driving record, no other issues relating to law or behavior but had his license revoked because he told the doc he drank 6 a day.

I'm not defending the actions of the doctor or the patient, please don't derail the thread and turn it into an argument about this guy's standards or habits, or the doctors actions, stay on topic. I'm just answering a posted question stating that some doctors will take action based on a patient's actions in relation to the doctor's views, which may be pertinent to the denial in question in the OP.
This one actually made it to print in the local paper. It did happen and if it happened once you know it could and will happen again.

[mauser]

Is it not so that only a family member can demand a 302? I was always under the assumption that if you have yourself admitted you are unable to 302 yourself............but I could be wrong.

I've never been involved with anyone being 302'd but I do know one person who was threatened with a 302 and he had the presence of mind to go voluntarily. I believe 302 can be ordered by a doctor, LEO, or someone else with proper credentials and a valid reason with solid evidence or proof, it doesn't have to be a family member. (But I'm sure it can't be done by a vengeful neighbor or ex-partner just for spite, it would have to be a verifiable situation). I would hope there would have to be another authority figure involved to approve it before it's executed.

We have doctors, lawyers, LEOs, EMTs and a host of others here who should be familiar with the process.
How does it really work, and if the brother of the OP did go in voluntarily is there a chance that it may have been listed as a 302 anyhow?

[D10]

I do know one person who was threatened with a 302 and he had the presence of mind to go voluntarily.

I had the same experience 4 years ago. My wife went through very stressful times and went to the hospital because she had trouble breathing (she is asthmatic) and I called her sister to tell her that we were in the hospital because of that.
She showed up and started a fit over there resulting in the fact that my wife (who was not diagnosed with Bi-polar yet) start arguing, got more stressful and short of breath. My sister in law told her to keep her trap shut or she would file a 302 right there because she knew medicine. Everyone of us probablyknow one of these people.....you know.....one of those people that like to sit on the doctors chair.
That was when I flew of the handle and told her that if she would even try, I would sue the heebeejeebees out of her.....she actually left.

The doctor told me that she could not file for a 302 because I (the husband) was there and I would over power her if she would've tried to file. Useless to say that the connection with the family went downhill from there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea if law enforcement would be able to do anything but maybe could reach an agreement with medical staff about a possible 302. If that 302 is filled out and the LEO was present, his signature should be on the form and that might be why the brother of the OP is in the system. The LEO is obligated to write a rapport if he signed any kind of form as a witness. I think I got it right but like I mentioned.....I am not really sure.

[ByblosHex]

YES! Some doctors do report things.

There was an article in the newspaper a few years ago about someone in the Lebanon area who went to his doctor for whatever reason and the doctor asked him how much alcohol he drinks. The guy told the doc. that he drinks about a six pack a day. The doctor successfully petitioned to have the guy's driver's license revoked.
The guy worked a day shift job, good work history, clean driving record, no other issues relating to law or behavior but had his license revoked because he told the doc he drank 6 a day.

I'm not defending the actions of the doctor or the patient, please don't derail the thread and turn it into an argument about this guy's standards or habits, or the doctors actions, stay on topic. I'm just answering a posted question stating that some doctors will take action based on a patient's actions in relation to the doctor's views, which may be pertinent to the denial in question in the OP.
This one actually made it to print in the local paper. It did happen and if it happened once you know it could and will happen again.

Don't talk to the Doctors!

[Kurt_D]

...Why does everyone say the FL is a loophole, is it alot easier to get.

The "loophole" has mostly to do with Phila's complaint that if they deny you for something bogus (like the "bad character" clause because you were arrested by an overzealous LEO for spitting on the sidewalk - danger to society, i.e. you were arrested but it doesn't matter for what or whether you were convicted), FL ignores BS like that and will issue a license based on what really matters. Philla got pissed that someone else didn't see eye-to-eye with their "holier than thou" mentality and called that a "loophole".

[Chazman321]

Any average person in contact with a person who is or has in the past 30 days (ER docs only care about the past few days in reality), may 302 someone. Yes, a crazy neighbor or jilted ex-lover can try and 302 you out of spite, but it would be next to impossible. I work in mental health, I'm not on the county designee list, but I have done close to 40 302's... I have done them on clients, strangers, and twice on a family member.

The process isn't difficult at all. But you must provide proof that the person has threatened to harm themselves or others, and if left free of their own will, will carry out their plans of doing such.

Yes, if you're a husband and your sister in law just shows up and wants to 302 your wife and you've been with her all day, it isn't going to fly with the ER doctor. However, when my brother threatened to show up at my house and my sister's house with a baseball bat and beat us to death, we had the voicemails and text messages to prove he did it, while his codependent wife naturally said he made no such phone calls and text messages... I

won, he got a 3 day stay, and I haven't talked to him in over a year... Being he is a doctor shopping drug addict with multiple serious mental illnesses and a pathological liar, I don't feel I'm missing out on anything...

Hell, I'm bi-polar, and even I can't deal with crazy!!! lol


-Chaz

[gbrown221]

Hey sorry guys I had work tonight so I didn't get to check the thread till now. Yes my brother has applied for his LTCF and was denied. I told him he needs to find the paperwork so I can post the reason so we can try to help him out. As far as I know he was never 302ed or involunterly commited. He was aloud to leave at any time but decided to stay to get helped. Now he did go to rehab 3 seperate times before he finally decided he needed to straighten his life. I can understand why his character may be of question. I guess my next question is what makes the FL permit easier to get then the PA LTCF. Why does everyone say the FL is a loophole, is it alot easier to get.

has he looked at getting a Arizone CCW Arizona is cheaper then Florida Non Resident and Arizona the fingerprints can be done by anyone and only have to be done once. For FL your fingerprints MUST be administered by a law enforcement agency. AZ also processes permits a lot faster. Most people on this forum are reporting 7 - 14 days to include mailing AZ the application.

gbrown221
Utah CFP Instructor
AZ DPS CCW Instructor
NRA Instructor and Chief Range Safety Officer
info@team-life.org
(215) 310-5436 office
www.team-life.org

[press1280]

FL may not be the way to go-it says you can't get a permit with a RECORD of drug or alcohol abuse. Exactly what that means I don't know but rehab may be a record. Although it's also unclear how FL would even know about this.
AZ's statute is similiar to PA's in that the language states only current drug/alcohol abuse, so I'd try there. He may want to purchase a firearm first-if he's denied for that he'll be denied for any permit.

[HSR47]

I can understand why his character may be of question. I guess my next question is what makes the FL permit easier to get then the PA LTCF. Why does everyone say the FL is a loophole, is it alot easier to get.

The "loophole" has mostly to do with Phila's complaint that if they deny you for something bogus [like the "character clause"]...

Basically this. PA and FL are both SHALL ISSUE states, however certain municipalities, like Philadelphia, use the "character clause" to deny pretty much everyone they think they can get away with it on. It's bogus, and it's clearly in violation of the spirit of the law.

The reason we've heard so much about a supposed "Florida loophole" is that Florida actually ISSUES licenses to everyone the law says they must, instead of, as Philadelphia does, to everyone they can't come up with even the smallest BS excuse to deny.

On top of this, Florida's requirements are well above and beyond that of PA's -- they require actual fingerprints and training for starters, neither of which are required in PA.

He may want to purchase a firearm first-if he's denied for that he'll be denied for any permit.

While this is good advice on the surface, I think it wise to consult the reason for his LTCF denial FIRST. The issue is that if he is a prohibited person under PA.C.S. Title 18 section 6105, his attempt to purchase a firearm may in and of itself be a felony.

[down2mars]

definitely file an appeal. On denial based on these types of scenarios are generally as previously stated; "character clause". Probably just a reflection of that particular sheriff's personal disposition. It's also against the law to issue a gun to a person who has been committed to a pshyc ward. But if you admit yourself doesn't go on your record and you're free to carry.