boycott Robinson Arms

[wellcraft]

i was considering voting for romney until i heard his views on assault weapons and other 2nd amendment issues and quickly discounted voting for him. romney in my opinion is just another politician flip flopping on the issues now that he's running for the presidency. i'm confident one of the reasons he's slipping in the poles and lot the primary in iowa is because of his stance on firearms. some politicians just don't get that most americans are in favor of firearm ownership. it's going to be tough deciding who to vote for this year because i'm not really thrilled with any of the republican candidates.

[NineseveN]

Anyone consider that he is running a BUSINESS, and may not give a rat's ass if any civilians purchase his weapons?

I mean, he's trying to get government contracts... I'm guessing that gov. and/or law enforcement contracts would bring in more cash than civilian sales could.

From Wiki...
The Robinson Armament XCR is a multi-caliber, gas piston weapon system developed by Robinson Armament Co. for U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM) to satisfy the requirements of the SOF Combat Assault Rifle[1], or SCAR competition, but was disqualified on a technicality due to late delivery of blank firing adapters. Robinson Armament continued development and the XCR is now being offered to law enforcement, the military and general public. Deliveries of the rifle began in mid-2006.

I was going to post some thoughts on this exact thing, but I decided against it as it just came out too grumpy. But I would agree. The XCR was a dismal failure in the civilian market when held up against the hype and expectations (though RA might not presently feel that way), it just hasn't really caught on. The only thing that would make that gun a success is some military or LEO adoption, which would put it into the realm of common awareness. Then all the Secret Squirrels and Mall Ninjas will have to have one because it was on 24 or CSI.

[Emptymag]

Yeah, and in case I forgot to spell it out, If he is only interested in gov/law enforcement sales, an AWB wouldn't mean diddly to his bottom line.

That line of thinking should come as no shock to anyone.
It happens all the time. That's why even if you don't see a "need" for someone to own an evil black rifle, you should still support the right to do so.

I don't know what his views are, I'm simply speculating.

[wellcraft]

I was going to post some thoughts on this exact thing, but I decided against it as it just came out too grumpy. But I would agree. The XCR was a dismal failure in the civilian market when held up against the hype and expectations (though RA might not presently feel that way), it just hasn't really caught on. The only thing that would make that gun a success is some military or LEO adoption, which would put it into the realm of common awareness. Then all the Secret Squirrels and Mall Ninjas will have to have one because it was on 24 or CSI.

i wouldn't say the XCR is a dismal failure in the civilian market since most people that have them love them and ROBARMS is expanding the line to include other calibers and additional options. it's my understanding from several internet sellers that they move the XCR's as fast as they can get them. i've had the opportunity to handle a couple XCR's and while i'm impressed with the rifle overall it just doesn't shout buy me like the FN FS2000 did.

i think MR Robinson made an error in supporting romney but has admitted his mistake. it's not like he made a zumbo type comment and condemned civilian ownership of assault rifles. or made a deal with the devil like SW did during the clinton years. people make mistakes, don't do their homework but that's no reason to boycott and try and run ROBARMS out of business. i think at times gun owners are our own worst enemy.

[NineseveN]

i wouldn't say the XCR is a dismal failure in the civilian market since most people that have them love them and ROBARMS is expanding the line to include other calibers and additional options. it's my understanding from several internet sellers that they move the XCR's as fast as they can get them. i've had the opportunity to handle a couple XCR's and while i'm impressed with the rifle overall it just doesn't shout buy me like the FN FS2000 did.

Please read what I posted again. I said, it was a dismal failure when held up against the hype, and I stand by that. When info on the XCR first started leaking out and even up until it was actually in full production, the hype was that the rifle would be the next BIG thing in small arms (similar to the hype behind the SCAR and the HK 416), would win the SCAR contract (which is currently irrelevant at this point) and could possibly replace the M16 and M14 in military and LEO outfits on a large scale (which it has not).

None of that has materialized yet, some (or all ) of it may never materialize. Again, the XCR simply did not live up to the hype. That doesn't mean it's not a nice rifle, and that doesn't mean that it does not enjoy a small committed following, it just means it did not live up to the hype...which most new "big things" don't in the firearms industry.

i think MR Robinson made an error in supporting romney but has admitted his mistake.

He's still trying to court the Romney camp last I heard. Look at his latest web page update on the issue, "Someone should be working to get Romney to change his opinion. That's what I'm trying to do. Many of you are positive that he won't change his mind. That may be so. But we would be both blind and foolish not to try. Why? Because it is still likely the will win both the nomination AND the election. "


http://www.robarm.com/XCR_Mitt_Romney.htm

He hasn't pulled his support, he's still trying to help get him elected last I understood it, that doesn't sound like he's admitting anything other than "oh crap, I'm being flamed on ARF.com more than I normally am, I better explain why what I'm doing is being misunderstood by the ignorant masses".

News flash, you cannot change a politician's fundamental beliefs. They will tell you whatever it is you want to hear so that you'll support them to get elected, then they'll drop you in an instant once they no longer need you. A number of 2A organizations have made that mistake and learned from it, that the person who said, "Whoever is in charge of firearms policy for Mitt's campaign needs to talk to me and fast. There's no one in the country who knows more about this subject or who can talk about it more intelligently than I can." doesn't know that speaks volumes about what a flatulent and grandiose self-image they have. Romney has a history of gun-grabbing and flip-flopping just to get elected, everyone who has paid attention for more than 5 minutes knows this.

Alex Robinson is an idiot, for him to say that there's no one in the country who knows more about firearms policy when he can't even be bothered to know the stances of the politician he's stumping for just stinks of absurdity. I'm not even connected to the firearms industry and the pimples on my ass know more about politics and firearms policy than Alex Robinson does. If he weren't so horribly arrogant, it might be a good undertaking for someone to work with him in the same fashion he thinks he's working with the Mitt Romney campaign and educate him a little bit before he hurts us all. And no, I don't base my thoughts of how arrogant he is by this one issue or one statement alone, Alex Robinson talks a lot of shit, that's pretty well-known; some people like that about him and see it as a virtue, others think he's a jackass.

it's not like he made a zumbo type comment and condemned civilian ownership of assault rifles. or made a deal with the devil like SW did during the clinton years. people make mistakes, don't do their homework but that's no reason to boycott and try and run ROBARMS out of business. i think at times gun owners are our own worst enemy.

No, he's merely supporting and trying to draw support for a politician that is no better than Hillary Clinton on firearms. That he's a firearms manufacturer make the wound sting all the more. His actions, should they prove successful, have the ability to render us all without the firearms we fight so hard to keep (of course, he'll be able to keep his with his license and govt contracts). That is the highest form of treachery coming from someone in his position, the NRA might as well endorse John Edwards if we're setting the bar so low for our so-called "friends".

[wellcraft]

nineseven, you make a few points but any company releasing a new firearm for military/police/civilian consumption is going to hype their product and make it seem like the best thing since sliced bread. i haven't followed the XCR's development closely but from i have read i don't recall a lot of hype from ROBARMS concerning the XCR making the M16 or any other weapons system obsolete. what company is going to release a new product and not hype it up a bit????

i have no problem with ROBARMS trying to change romney's mind, while it may be a waste of time there's no harm in trying. if ROBARM's continues to support romney i would have a problem with it but as i posted earlier people make mistakes sometimes when they jump the gun and don't do their homework. i supported romney until i heard a clip of him on the radio supporting another assault weapons ban. up until that point i had heard he was a member of the NRA and supported 2nd amendment rights. of course being a governor in an anti gun state like MA i had my doubts about his sincerity.

i still think ROBARMS should be given the benefit of the doubt but that's only my opinion.

[NineseveN]

nineseven, you make a few points but any company releasing a new firearm for military/police/civilian consumption is going to hype their product and make it seem like the best thing since sliced bread. i haven't followed the XCR's development closely but from i have read i don't recall a lot of hype from ROBARMS concerning the XCR making the M16 or any other weapons system obsolete. what company is going to release a new product and not hype it up a bit????

Well, as you said, you didn't follow it, so I can understand if you don't know. Yes, all new products are hyped, many are dismal failures when compared against the hype, the really good ones, the ones that are quality and marketable do sustain their hype. I believe I've made that part of my thoughts clear.

i still think ROBARMS should be given the benefit of the doubt but that's only my opinion.

He was given the benefit of the doubt, right up until he opened his mouth and tried to defend his actions and stance on the issue. A simple, "I'm sorry, I obviously overlooked or did not make myself aware of Mitt Romney's severe anti-gun stance, but thankfully, I have been made aware of it by my customers and fellow 2A supporters. I hereby renounce any support for Mitt Romney as a presidential candidate". No, he's still trying to tell us all that he's smarter than we are, and that he knows politics better than anyone else, which is laughable considering his abundant ignorance on the very candidate he chose to support.

No, what we got was:


All he had to say was that he would protect the lawful ownership of firearms and prosecute those who misuse firearms. He didn't have to alienate a huge portion of his current and potential support base. -- (Does it matter if he means it or not, Alex? He can say anything, hell, he has said things and then turned around and done the exact opposite. It doesn't matter what he says now, his history speaks for itself).


First of all, I agree with you all that we need a President who will protect the Second Amendment without reservation. I was aware that Mitt did not have a great record in Mass. However, I felt that Mitt had become a little more conservative in this area. -- (So were you aware of his record or not. there is nothing benign in his record on firearms, either you knew about the AWB or not. Working to pass one AWB is enough to mark one as anti-gun, PERIOD. Romney saying he's more conservative now doesn't mean anything, he has always been anti-gun, and every statement he's made about it support that notion or has been full of crap).

Oh hell, just back and read http://www.pafoa.org/forum/170249-post-26.html, that entire post by Alex is garbage.

There's no one in the country who knows more about this subject or who can talk about it more intelligently than I can. -- (This ignores the fact that he has no clue about Mitt Romney's background, stance and voting history, thus being himself ignorant -if no one knows more than he does, we're all in trouble here).

I do still believe that in general Mitt Romney is the most qualified candidate for President. However, if he will not state unequivocally that he will protect and not ban our beloved assault rifles, I will not be able to continue to support him. -- (This ignores the patterns demonstrated by Romney to flip-flop and say whatever he has to in order to get elected only to abandon others when the political winds shift. Mitt Romney's word isn't worth squat, it never has been and likely never will be. Mitt can say he will protect us from an AWB and then sign one the minute it crosses his desk as President, he's shown that kind of behavior before. For Alex Robinson to be willing to take the man at his word shows that he is either still terribly ignorant of politics and Mitt Romney's record or that he has already made up his mind to support Romney at any cost and is looking for the campaign to throw him a bone and bail him out of the mess he's gotten himself into.)







As for your earlier comparison between Romney and Zumbo, take a gander:

“Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts,” Romney said, at a bill signing ceremony on July 1 with legislators, sportsmen’s groups and gun safety advocates. “These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people.”

VS

"I call them "assault" rifles, which may upset some people. Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. I'll go so far as to call them "terrorist" rifles. They tell me that some companies are producing assault rifles that are "tackdrivers."

Sorry, folks, in my humble opinion, these things have no place in hunting. We don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them, which is an obvious concern. I've always been comfortable with the statement that hunters don't use assault rifles. We've always been proud of our "sporting firearms."

Yeah, real big difference.

[wellcraft]

As for your earlier comparison between Romney and Zumbo, take a gander:



VS




Yeah, real big difference.

i was speaking about ROBARMS actions and words not MITT Romney's words compared to what Zumbo said. try taking the time to read what i actually said in my post compared to want you wanted to read. ROBARMS has not condemned civilian ownership of assault weapons and makes available for sale assault style weapons to the civilian market.

considering the info in your post i still disagree with you on ROBARMS. i followed the development of the XCR close enough to know it wasn't hyped any more than any other weapons system. many weapons systems are not widely adopted by the military or police so the fact the XCR may not have lived up to what you call hype is no big deal. besides the XCR has only been available for a short period of time and the real impact of it's success/failure can't be guaged for several years. we'll have to agree to disagree, i'm willing to give ROBARMS the benefit of the doubt if you've made up your mind on ROBARMS that's fine for you but i'm not ready to throw ROBARMS under the bus just yet.

[NineseveN]

i was speaking about ROBARMS actions and words not MITT Romney's words compared to what Zumbo said. try taking the time to read what i actually said in my post compared to want you wanted to read.

You're missing the point. Romney condemned assault rifles and civilian ownership of them. Zumbo condemned assault rifles and the people who own them. For Alex Robinson to support Romney after what he has said and done would be no different than Remington continuing to support Zumbo after what he said. In fact, considering that Remington did not make or sell any rifles other than those types that Zumbo supported at the time, yet ROBARMS makes actual "Assault Rifles", it's even worse on ROBARMS. Remington had the sack and presence of mind to sever all contracts with Zumbo and publicly denounce him within a FEW DAYS of him saying what he said and being made aware of it. Alex Robinson is STILL trying to shift his ass around and make himself out to be on the right side of this issue, even after being made aware of just how anti-gun Romney is.

Remington did not come out and say, "we've supported Jim Zumbo for twenty (20) years, he's a friend, and we're going to stand by him if he just says that he's changed his mind. We'll still support him in the meantime, we're waiting to hear back from him. We still think he's a great writer, better than the alternatives, so we're sticking by him, but only if he says he didn't mean what he said or he's changed his mind."

ROBARMS has not condemned civilian ownership of assault weapons...

If he/they continue to support Romney, they have done just that. Like it or not, people are judged by whom they associate with...and giving political support is giving support to the candidate's positions. By extension of Alex Robinson's support of Romney, he is supporting Romney's condemnations of civilian ownership of assault rifles.

...the development of the XCR close enough to know it wasn't hyped any more than any other weapons system.

I said exactly that in my posts on this thread.

many weapons systems are not widely adopted by the military or police so the fact the XCR may not have lived up to what you call hype is no big deal.

When considering the political motivations of a firearms manufacturer supporting an Anti-gun presidential candidate, it IS a big deal. Again, it's not a reflection on the quality of the firearm in question, but it is relevant when discussing the political motivations in this case.


Cheers.

[wellcraft]

well ROBARM's claimed not to have known about romney's anti assault weapons stance and the fact romney would sign another AWB if elected president. i'm taking the man's word for it and giving him the benefit of the doubt. ROBARMS claims he wants to try and change romney's mind which is OK in my book although i doubt it would be successful but it never hurts to try. if ROBARMS continues to support romney then i could not support ROBARMS. i'm willing to give ROBARMS a 2nd chance before i throw him under the bus. whereas you're ready to throw him under the bus now because he hasn't reacted in a way you feel appropriate or the way you would react.

when you talk of boycotting ROBARMS you do exactly what the anti's want and that's putting a gun manufacturer out of business. i'm all for 2nd chances and giving ROBARMS time to change his mind and not condemning ROBARMS or destroying his business because he made a hasty decision to support romney before he knew romney's views on assault weapons. now if a month or two from now ROBARMS is still supporting romney then i would have to agree with you about boycotting ROBARMS.

again we'll have to agree to disagree