18 Year old Carry Questions...

[tl_3237]

Do we have any case data (with child & parent) to back that up?

Mr Jones and Mr Smith is not the same as Mr Jones and Mr Jones jr. On the Firearm purchase form the parent would not have to lie in order to buy the firearm for the child, otherwise buying a firearm to gift to a realted child would be illegal, and half of the forum would be felons. :P

It certainly is the same.

Recognize that, under Federal laws, there is no distinction based on familial relationship. The transaction is simply between two individuals - it matters not whether they are spouses, ascendants/descendants, or two random persons meeting on the street.

Under Federal law you can legally buy a firearm as a true gift for someone else (again irrespective of a relationship or lack of one) as noted by 4473 Q11a. Depending on geographics, the donor's conveyance of that gift must comport with all applicable Federal and state laws. For example - if the donor/donee do not reside in the same state then an FFL would have to officiate the final gift transfer. If the donor/donee both reside in and are consummating the final transfer in Pa: a handgun would still need an FFL unless there was an excepted familial relationship; a longarm could be given directly without FFL involvement. If the donor/donee both reside in NJ and are consummating the final transfer in NJ: a handgun would require a Pistol Purchase Permit of the donee to be filled/filed by the donor; a longarm would require the donor obtain a eligibility form filled by the donee along with displaying by the donee of the NJFID.

If, however, you purchase a firearm having been given funds or expecting reimbursement by the eventual recipient, that is not a gift purchase but a 'straw purchase' under Federal and Pa law (see Gunlawyer001's post I quoted previously).

[Marko From PA]

Anyone know a friendly FFL that's willing to let a handgun be transfered to an 18 year old around the pittsburgh area? I Got a good long time friend that wants me to be able to have a firearm before being 21 for my home defense. but I Heard many sheriff's and FFL's arent willing to do a transfer to someone whos 18 Even though It's legal to open carry a handgun In PA at 18.

Many thanks an appreciation In advance guys.

Marko~

[knight0334]

Anyone know a friendly FFL that's willing to let a handgun be transfered to an 18 year old around the pittsburgh area? I Got a good long time friend that wants me to be able to have a firearm before being 21 for my home defense. but I Heard many sheriff's and FFL's arent willing to do a transfer to someone whos 18 Even though It's legal to open carry a handgun In PA at 18.

Many thanks an appreciation In advance guys.

Marko~

Its against federal law for a FFL to transfer a handgun to a person younger than 21. ....so, unless they are into breaking the law - you will not find any. That includes private transfers through a FFL. The FFL must add the gun to his bound book to use the PICS/NICS, when he adds the handgun to the bound book, the person receiving the handgun must be 21 - federal law.

PA Sheriff's are the only option someone under 21yo has. ...well, other than a transfer from a spouse, parent, or grandparent - which you can have the friend transfer the gun to your parents or grandparents, then have your kinfolk just give it to you.

[ByblosHex]

FYI My previous Statements and choice of words were highly influenced by New Castle Brown Ale. :P

[tl_3237]

Its against federal law for a FFL to transfer a handgun to a person younger than 21. ....so, unless they are into breaking the law - you will not find any. That includes private transfers through a FFL. The FFL must add the gun to his bound book to use the PICS/NICS, when he adds the handgun to the bound book, the person receiving the handgun must be 21 - federal law.

PA Sheriff's are the only option someone under 21yo has. ...well, other than a transfer from a spouse, parent, or grandparent - which you can have the friend transfer the gun to your parents or grandparents, then have your kinfolk just give it to you.

Considering the totality of circumstances - wouldn't this be considered in the final analysis a transfer from friend to friend (illegal under 6111) with the intermediate transfers involving a parent/grandparent being shams?

[knight0334]

Considering the totality of circumstances - wouldn't this be considered in the final analysis a transfer from friend to friend (illegal under 6111) with the intermediate transfers involving a parent/grandparent being shams?

No, because the transfer to the parent/grandparent would fulfill a lawful transfer and is sanctioned by the state. Once lawfully transferred to the parent/grandparent, the former owner has no investment in it's legality there after.

The times when the totality of circumstances would be considered is when it'd go unrecorded for 2 steps. Like from brother, to parent, to the other brother. In the situation I mentioned, the first transfer from friend to parent is whole and complete, eliminating the friend from legal liabilities. The parent is then within the law to give/sell/barter the handgun to the child.

[tl_3237]

No, because the transfer to the parent/grandparent would fulfill a lawful transfer and is sanctioned by the state. Once lawfully transferred to the parent/grandparent, the former owner has no investment in it's legality there after.

The times when the totality of circumstances would be considered is when it'd go unrecorded for 2 steps. Like from brother, to parent, to the other brother. In the situation I mentioned, the first transfer from friend to parent is whole and complete, eliminating the friend from legal liabilities. The parent is then within the law to give/sell/barter the handgun to the child.

I thought about that but I still think it's at best a gray area. Considering the two scenarios: [friend1 to friend2 (under 21)] and [sibling1 to sibling2 (under 21)]:

The intent of friend1 is to give the handgun to friend2 (under 21) but he is prevented from doing using an FFL -without a cooperative sheriff there is no legal way to do a direct transfer. Involving the complicit parent is only a end-run around that prohibition; just as the sibling1/parent/sibling2 (under 21) method is an end-run around the requirement to use an FFL (again frustrated by age) for a sibling1 to sibling2 (under 21) transfer.

If the friend1/parent transfer is 'whole and complete' because its transfer is 'state sanctioned', so too is a sibling1/parent 'whole and complete' and 'state sanctioned'. The legality is the same for the former, using an FFL, as the latter, exempted from using an FFL.

Futher consider our sibling scenario - suppose the sibling1/parent transfer used an FFL and the parent/sibling2 transfer was done under the 6111 exception - how would that alter the legality looking at the totality?

It still seems to me that you have to look at the overall intent of the end parties. In either the friend or sibling scenario the mechanism would be the same - transfer of a firearm using an intermediary (parent) who only serves as a facilitator to overcome a legal impediment and without whom the inclusive transfer could not be accomplished. I could foresee a court deciding that such parental involvement being a 'sham'.

[Marko From PA]

Its against federal law for a FFL to transfer a handgun to a person younger than 21. ....so, unless they are into breaking the law - you will not find any. That includes private transfers through a FFL. The FFL must add the gun to his bound book to use the PICS/NICS, when he adds the handgun to the bound book, the person receiving the handgun must be 21 - federal law.

PA Sheriff's are the only option someone under 21yo has. ...well, other than a transfer from a spouse, parent, or grandparent - which you can have the friend transfer the gun to your parents or grandparents, then have your kinfolk just give it to you.

Now does my grandmother the one who will receive the handgun from my friend need a ccp to get It transferred to her? or will she being over the age of 21 be enough?

Thanks for any and all awnsers.

[QuickdrawMcGraw]

get maine's- (you can get maine's at 18 years old) then when you get it, apply for new hampshire.(new hampshire will give anyone their license as long as you have one from another state already (which would be maine's). then carry on new hampshire's license.


http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/n...ts/dssp260.pdf
page 2 on here..

Has anyone ever actually tried this approach before? I'm interested in it, but I don't want to through effort after foolishness.

[BandanaBandit1]

I have asked the same question to 2 different individuals, both with a great level of knowledge of firearms and PA carry laws. BOTH told me it is illegal for a 18 year old to just own a pistol, let alone carry one. can someone please site me the Statutes of the law that covers this? Thanks to everyone in advance.!