18 Year old Carry Questions...

[bac0nfat]

Getting money from a child to purchase a handgun is simply being given money, buying a firearm from a FFL, giving the firearm to the child. All of which are legal actions

I see what you're saying. Yes, a parent can accept money from their child, they can also buy a gun from an FFL, and they can transfer a gun to their child. If all of those occurred separately, each one of those actions would be legal. But to accept money as payment for a gun, then go to an FFL with the intent of buying said gun ON BEHALF of the child, is illegal.

It's like saying, "I'm allowed to consume alcohol because I'm 21. I'm also allowed to drive a car because I have a drivers license. Therefor, I can consume alcohol while I drive my car."

Doesn't really work that way.

[SAB215]

Carry laws aside...

Good luck buying ammo, you need to be 21 to do that too.
Unless you're shooting it from a carbine.

[/dev/null]

In PA (except Philly), you being 18 can Open Carry.

In Philly, you can't since it is a 1st class city (only one in PA) and a LTCF is required to OC or CC......

Aint no such thing as a "first class city" called Philadelphia. I believe your confused with a city of the first class.

While semantics, referring to Philly as a "first class city" is just plain wrong

[tl_3237]

Carry laws aside...

Good luck buying ammo, you need to be 21 to do that too.
Unless you're shooting it from a carbine.

Only when you buy ammo from a Federal licensee. The age restriction does not apply to sales by non-licensees and ammo sellers do not have to be Federally licensed unless they are importers or manufacturers.

[ByblosHex]

Only when you buy ammo from a Federal licensee. The age restriction does not apply to sales by non-licensees and ammo sellers do not have to be Federally licensed unless they are importers or manufacturers.

True 123467

[QuickdrawMcGraw]

I'm 19 and I'm very interested in trying this. Does anyone know of a Maine qualified class instructor in PA? Thanks

[ByblosHex]

I see what you're saying. Yes, a parent can accept money from their child, they can also buy a gun from an FFL, and they can transfer a gun to their child. If all of those occurred separately, each one of those actions would be legal. But to accept money as payment for a gun, then go to an FFL with the intent of buying said gun ON BEHALF of the child, is illegal.

It's like saying, "I'm allowed to consume alcohol because I'm 21. I'm also allowed to drive a car because I have a drivers license. Therefor, I can consume alcohol while I drive my car."

Doesn't really work that way.

That's not the best comparison. Drinking and Driving is illegal.

Buying a gun with the intention to gift or give to a related child is not illegal. There is no-where on the form that asks where you got the money to buy the gun from. It doesn't matter.

I concede it could be considered straw purchasing if it is somehow made blatantly obvious that the parent purchased the gun only to sell it to their child. But, buying a gun with the intention of giving it to the child is not unlawful, regardless of the origin of the money used to make the purchase. Unless you can offer another citation I am unaware of that makes it illegal to purchase a firearm with gifted money or makes it illegal to gift or give a firearm to a related child without a FFL transfer. :P

[bac0nfat]

From the ATF website:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

Questions have arisen concerning the
lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw
purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual
buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
the Form 4473 purporting to show
that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm. In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.
Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee. In other instances,
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
the firearm.
In both instances, the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual
purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The
licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law
if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.
An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.
Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.
The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.

(sorry for the bad text format above)

"An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm."

Isn't that exactly what's happening in the parent-child scenario? Replace "Mr. Smith" with "child", and replace "Mr. Jones" with "parent"

"An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Child asks Parent to purchase a firearm for Child. Child gives Parent the money for the firearm."

Just sayin'

[ByblosHex]

From the ATF website:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...f-p-5300-4.pdf

(sorry for the bad text format above)

"An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm."

Isn't that exactly what's happening in the parent-child scenario? Replace "Mr. Smith" with "child", and replace "Mr. Jones" with "parent"

"An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Child asks Parent to purchase a firearm for Child. Child gives Parent the money for the firearm."

Just sayin'

Do we have any case data (with child & parent) to back that up?

Mr Jones and Mr Smith is not the same as Mr Jones and Mr Jones jr. On the Firearm purchase form the parent would not have to lie in order to buy the firearm for the child, otherwise buying a firearm to gift to a realted child would be illegal, and half of the forum would be felons. :P

[bac0nfat]

Do we have any case data (with child & parent) to back that up?

Mr Jones and Mr Smith is not the same as Mr Jones and Mr Jones jr. On the Firearm purchase form the parent would not have to lie in order to buy the firearm for the child, otherwise buying a firearm to gift to a realted child would be illegal, and half of the forum would be felons. :P

I don't, and I doubt there is any case law out there pertaining to this matter. Like I said, I bet it's something that would never be enforced unless the kid used the gun in a crime the week after his dad bought it for him. The way the law is written, it would be at LEAST questionable for a parent to buy a gun from an FFL for the sole purpose of immediately turning it over to the child. That being said, it would probably be a good idea to practice some good OPSEC if one was planning on doing this.

In a nutshell what I'm saying is: Whether it's illegal or not, err on the side of caution if you decide to do it.

PS: I still think it's illegal. Agree to disagree?




IANAL, don't break the law, etc etc