18 Year old Carry Questions...

[Marko From PA]

Wow! I Must say, got a great bunch of people on here! I Didn't expect to see a reply for at least a week minimum. I Thank you all very much for your concern and helpfullness. It's not everyday good people such as yourselves are found. thank you muchly guys. Anyone else can still feel free to post on this. I'm just so impressed.

[bac0nfat]

They can buy it and then simply hand it to you and it is yours. If they already have a firearm, they can give or sell you those too with no transfer needed.

So, how much time needs to pass from the moment the parent buys the gun in order for them to be able to sell it to the child? What if they buy the gun for themselves, and the next day they decide they don't want it anymore, can they sell it to their child?

I think the question is about intent, more so than money exchanging hands.

[Marko From PA]

However at 18 years of age you can travel half way across the world, shed your blood on the battle grounds defending your rights against a foreign enemy, the very same rights that your own country deny you.

I Know. Sickening, Isn't It?







"Everyone's a supposed terrorist until proven Innocent" Author Unknown~

[ByblosHex]

So, how much time needs to pass from the moment the parent buys the gun in order for them to be able to sell it to the child? What if they buy the gun for themselves, and the next day they decide they don't want it anymore, can they sell it to their child?

I think the question is about intent, more so than money exchanging hands.

The PA Code makes no mention of time constraints or gifting relevant to transfer of a firearm from parent to child. A parent to child sale is a transfer as much as gifting would be.

Gifting and Selling both work the same in PA. They are both transfers. Transfers require an FFL except Parent to Child.

[donm]

However at 18 years of age you can travel half way across the world, shed your blood on the battle grounds defending your rights against a foreign enemy, the very same rights that your own country deny you.

...which is precisely the same argument used during the Vietnam war to lower the drinking age in most states to 18. That time, there really was blood in the streets. Not saying you're wrong, but there just may be a valid argument on the other side as well.

[ByblosHex]

However at 18 years of age you can travel half way across the world, shed your blood on the battle grounds defending your rights against a foreign enemy, the very same rights that your own country deny you.

Those rights aren't being denied. They're simply postponed. Also, there are very few countries in this world where civilian ownership & possession of firearms is allowed at all.

[bac0nfat]

The PA Code makes no mention of time constraints or gifting relevant to transfer of a firearm from parent to child. A parent to child sale is a transfer as much as gifting would be.

Gifting and Selling both work the same in PA. They are both transfers. Transfers require an FFL except Parent to Child.

I know, but I was referring to the Federal Law that states you must be the actual buyer of the firearm in order to purchase from the FFL. Technically you are in violation of Federal law if a parent buys a gun from an FFL with the intent to sell the gun to their child. Right? I know it's legal by PA law, but with Federal law is technically illegal, with a strict interpretation of the law...

At least that's how I read it. I highly doubt anyone would ever be prosecuted for doing that, unless their child was a prohibited person, or used the gun to commit a crime.

disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, know the law and don't break it

ETA: Where's GL? He could end this whole thread in one post.

[tl_3237]

Buying a handgun for the purpose of selling it to a child is a Federal and Pa violation in that statements made on the 4473 and PSP 4-113 would necessarily be false.

Its a matter of 'agency'. If the parent & child collude to have the parent buy the handgun for him and subsequently sell it to the child then the parents would be purchasing agents of that child and hence illegal - the child could also be considered complicit in their illegal purchase. If they purchase the handgun truly as a gift then there is no violation (state or Federal).

There is no Pa violation if a longarm, rather than a handgun is involved since there's no 4-113 form -- the Federal 4473 issue however remains.

If the parent claims to have bought the firearm truly for themselves, were dissatisfied by the buy, and then sell it to the child then whether that claim is assigned any veracity would be the function of a judicial trier-of-fact if prosecuted by the authorities. There is no hard and fast rule as to time periods.

[ByblosHex]

I know, but I was referring to the Federal Law that states you must be the actual buyer of the firearm in order to purchase from the FFL. Technically you are in violation of Federal law if a parent buys a gun from an FFL with the intent to sell the gun to their child. Right? I know it's legal by PA law, but with Federal law is technically illegal, with a strict interpretation of the law...

At least that's how I read it. I highly doubt anyone would ever be prosecuted for doing that, unless their child was a prohibited person, or used the gun to commit a crime.

disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, know the law and don't break it

ETA: Where's GL? He could end this whole thread in one post.

Intention need not be defined when buying a firearm. You may purchase a firearm "just because." Plenty of people buy firearms just to turn around and sell them to someone else the following day/week. There's plenty for sale on the classifieds section of the forums.

Getting money from a child to purchase a handgun is simply being given money, buying a firearm from a FFL, giving the firearm to the child. All of which are legal actions.

Being given money from someone unrelated, buying a Firearm from a FFL, and then giving the firearm to the unrelated person becomes a crime when the firearm is illegally transferred without a FFL.

Being given money from someone unrelated, buying a Firearm from a FFL and then selling that firearm to an unrelated person through an FFL is legal.

[tl_3237]

Intention need not be defined when buying a firearm. You may purchase a firearm "just because." Plenty of people buy firearms just to turn around and sell them to someone else the following day/week. (At some point they are doing it as a business and required to have an FFL). There's plenty for sale on the classifieds section of the forums.

Getting money from a child to purchase a handgun is simply being given money, buying a firearm from a FFL, giving the firearm to the child. All of which are legal actions. In the totality of circumstances this is a parent purchasing as an agent for the child (as opposed to a gift for the child) - illegal at both the Federal and PA level for handguns; Federal level for longarms.

Being given money from someone unrelated, buying a Firearm from a FFL, and then giving the firearm to the unrelated person becomes a crime when the firearm is illegally transferred without a FFL. Nope - if purchasing as an agent of that money provider then a Federal crime occurs when the buyer signs and tenders the 4473 to the FFL. Other Federal violation may occur when the firearm is subsequently conveyed to the money provider.

Being given money from someone unrelated, buying a Firearm from a FFL and then selling that firearm to an unrelated person through an FFL is legal. Why would someone be gifting you $$$? But yes, if you then buy a firearm of your own volition and thereafter transfer it through an FFL - its probably legal but I don't see the connection to the discussion at hand and how the $$$ gifted has any relation to the firearm purchase..

RED inserts mine.

You should probably be more cautious about making statements about what is "legal", because a lot of what you say is wrong, and clutters the environment for people who Google their way here looking for "answers". No offense intended, and you're not alone in doing this.

We aren't legislators or bureaucrats, discussing in a vacuum how the law should work in the future. Those tasks have been done by others, leaving us to discern what their choices were. If you want to drive to Cleveland, you don't start with a blank sheet of paper and figure out where the road should be, you have to travel the road that's already there. Like reading maps, we FIND OUT what choices were ALREADY made, we don't figure out prescriptively what the rules logically SHOULD BE. The way to change them requires new legislation or new administrative rules, not Internet chatter.

A straw purchase is one where the person at the counter is not the real "buyer". He's an agent for someone else, or he's buying for resale (which may also bring charges of dealing without an FFL).

ATF determined that a bona fide gift, where you the buyer make the decision to purchase the firearm and give it to someone else, where you are NOT acting as the AGENT of the recipient and are not acting like a dealer, is OK, that it's not a straw purchase. Pretty much every other intermediary transaction is a crime, according to ATF and the statutes. If you buy for resale, if you buy with money advanced by the real buyer, if you use your own money with the expectation that the real buyer will reimburse you....these are all acts which can be successfully prosecuted. Profit motive is relevant to "unlicensed dealing" charges, but not to "straw purchase" charges, which only require a finding that you lied to an FFL.