Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Page 1 of 11 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 101
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Red Lion PA
    (York County)
    Posts
    588
    Rep Power
    30795

    Default Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    For many years, I have been polite when it comes to talking about the fact that traditional martial arts and marksmanship training fail the litmus test when it comes to surviving real life violence. Those days are over. I have decided to stop joking about it because people’s lives depend on knowing the truth. I am sure people who have made a particular martial art or the shooting sports as their religion will get their panties in a bunch, but before you do, understand that I am a traditional martial artist and practice marksmanship. Both take years to master and are a lifelong pursuit of understanding and perfection I will never give up. That said, few people will have the benefit of unlimited time and money to prepare for a deadly confrontation that can come at any time.

    The good news is that by understanding human psychology, anatomy, and physiology, along with using what we continue to learn about violent attacks, you can leave the comfort zone and enter the confidence zone; all of this without spending thousands of dollars and hours. Your training time has got to be spent training for what is most likely first, and then worrying about what could happen.

    Here is what I say to the police officer, which do you do more of, shoot people or go hands on with them to put them in cuffs? Train accordingly.

    Here is what I say to the armed citizen, have you ever been involved in any altercation that did not escalate from a verbal altercation before it got physical? Train accordingly.

    Here in Part I, I will start with the problems associated with square range, live fire training when it comes to the reality of gun fighting.

    I stopped buying gun magazines about a decade ago, and every so often I will be in a bookstore and pick one up and immediately remember why. One of the most common articles is about one fighting pistol class or another. You know a middle aged white guy, wearing a 511 tuxedo, firing a customized 1911, using a two handed isosceles grip, putting rounds into a stationary target in bright daylight, while standing still; usually with an instructor also in a 511 tuxedo holding a shot timer over his shoulder. His custom leather is easy to see since he is usually not wearing a concealment garment.
    I am not sure that even if I did my best I could paint a better picture of the opposite of reality when it comes to situations I have been involved in, read about, investigated, or interviewed people about. Everyone can agree that the majority of shootings occur in low light situations. Then why does low light shooting make up such a small fraction of training. And when low light shooting is done, it is usually done with a light in the reaction side hand, because we know it is so likely that you will simultaneously draw your pistol and light during a spontaneous shooting that begins from a visual cue, instead of a buzzer. It should not be that hard to do since everyone wears their range costume every day of the week. Even if the majority of your holster work is not done from concealment, I am sure that if you have to draw from concealment, there isn’t any way you will get a hand full of polo shirt over your gun. And if you do, you will not have any problems dealing with it.

    When you think about facing a deadly threat, what is it that makes it deadly? For many shooters, it is usually a gun. You know, the classic man with a gun, out in the open, against the perfect backstop. Have you thought about having to shoot an unarmed man off of you while you are on your back because he is smashing your head against the ground and you are losing consciousness? Do you want the first time you have to do this to be for real? I mean you have trained to shoot after being knocked flat on your ass, and not just laying down and then start shooting…right?
    Remember to get on those sights. Never mind the fact that over and over again in force on force training with simunitions and airsoft we find that at distances within seven yards you don’t have the space or the time to get the pistol to eye level.

    After years of training and thousands of rounds of shooting with a two handed convulsive firing grip, you should not have any problem taking your support hand off the gun to block or evade a knife or tire iron, or even holding a loved one behind you, or for that matter feeling your way around cover.

    Make sure you spend hundreds of hours practicing your reloads, and malfunctions with the threat 3 yards away, instead of taking the pistol and smashing his skull in with it.

    OK, OK, enough with the sarcasm. In just the last year, between my work with military, police, and citizens, I have had approximately 1200 lab rats to learn from. Given the fact that I have absolutely no control over the personality, background, and physical characteristics of people who turn up in classes, here are the things that stand at least in my mind, as to what happens when people are stressed.

    • Even though most people will go out of their way to have their back to the wall, under stress they will back pedal until they fall backwards on their ass or run into something. Small things like vehicles and trees. Upon busting their ass or running into something, they get this shocked look on their face for at least a few seconds before they recover…or in some cases quit.

    • Even when aggressed by a man with a knife running at full speed, many people will stand still, feet planted, and draw into a perfect two handed firing grip, and dump an entire magazine towards the threat. This is 100% the byproduct of square range training where any movement off the line is prohibited.

    • When shooters have both hands on the gun and are experiencing tunnel vision, they will move towards cover and stop thinking they are close to or behind it, only to realize they are several feet or yards away from it.

    • Even at distances less than five yards, students who experience a malfunction will call a mental time out, and just stand there working on the problem as if the threat will wait until he is done. Many will just look at their pistol in disbelief.

    • Even though I jokingly encourage them to do so, I have yet to have a student fire rounds into COM of a live threat during a spontaneous attack at 7-10 yards from another live human, and then intentionally transition to a head shot.

    • While wearing headgear and being punched in the head with boxing gloves, students hands come up to protect their head in response to the shock and pain, not down to their gun. Often it seems as though they forget they are wearing a gun.

    • During a spontaneous attack in low light conditions, I have yet to have a student simultaneously draw a light and a pistol. If they have a weapon dedicated light, I have yet to have one be able to turn the light on.

    And I am sure that many are reading this thinking that I am reporting these findings because I am just not getting people who have had high end professional training. The truth is that people, who have the most gun training, even at the most prestigious schools whose names you would recognize, do no better or worse than their counterparts with little to no prior training. At least in the beginning, they are usually pretty pissed off about it too. Then they come to the realization that at least now they have the missing link, and know what they need to work on.

    For those of you who have invested in a lifelong pursuit of excellence when it comes to mastering the pistol, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater, but instead now concentrate on how to totally dominate the three seconds of hell that is the reality of a deadly force situation. Just keep in mind that there will be no pretty targets or trophies, just deposits in an account, that one day you will hopefully be able to draw on allowing you to come home to those who love you.
    For those with little to know previous training, you are in luck, you can front load your training with the skills and reactions that will allow you to survive. Just don’t forget to do all the other traditional stuff, take your time, and build good habits. We also know that at altercations that take place farther away, the more marksmanship will be needed.

    This and the subsequent “Too important to keep my mouth shut about it anymore” articles will be first posted on my blog, on my Facebook, and on all the forums I frequent. I look forward to conversations about my findings, as well as comments from those who have trained with me.

    For anyone who doubts my findings, I would be happy to evidence them to in person you if possible.
    Today may be your last training day, don’t waste it.- George

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Poconos, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
    Posts
    5,320
    Rep Power
    12618

    Default Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    Great post. Prepare to be flamed.
    Quote Originally Posted by headcase View Post
    let them eventually bring the FBI to kill my wife and son over fucking chickens....

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Ephrata, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
    Posts
    691
    Rep Power
    1464426

    Default Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    Good read. When can we expect part deux and what will it cover?
    Johnnie F.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Red Lion PA
    (York County)
    Posts
    588
    Rep Power
    30795

    Default Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    Oh, I know. Like I said I am not going to keep my mouth shut about it anymore. There are already people on other forums with pitchforks.

    Here is the difference, if someone here disbelieves me and wants to prove me wrong, I invite them to attend a class to do so. I am not challenging anyone, on the contrary I want to prove to them that they need to be doing reality based training instead of killing cardboard with 1000 rounds in a weekend standing on line with 10 other people.

    Of course some people are already saying that I think what I do because I am just not getting trained students. The truth is that when we use training based on human instinct instead of range training, the less prior training people have the better they do. Probably because they do not have the inner turmoil of having to admit that it is not all about the gun, it is about the fight.- George

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Monroeville, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    6,650
    Rep Power
    21474859

    Default Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    So what your saying is that most of the training courses offered are a waste of time and lots of money?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    south/west, Pennsylvania
    (Cambria County)
    Posts
    1,556
    Rep Power
    104329

    Cool Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    Quote Originally Posted by arjohnson View Post
    So what your saying is that most of the training courses offered are a waste of time and lots of money?

    I am certain there are MANY courses that are nothing more than a money making endeavor for those offering it. As with any thing, there will be good, better, best and of course worthless.

    The OP is really making an effort to voice what he feels is a "wiser" more useful path to take in training. I see the point and agree.

    I have been entered the training realm just recently and I see how some courses can easily be filled with a lot of time wasting "tactics" that do NOT or CANNOT pertain to the real world of self-defense.

    My curiosity is peaked with what the OP has stated. I want to learn more and will search accordingly.

    I see White Marsh/Middle River MD is about a 4 hours drive for me.

    Typical gun training courses can be expensive and I do not want to loose valuable time by being involved in the "wrong" courses.

    Show me the REAL world stuff and I will invest if I can
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mK2JYfZAmA When will America become America?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    504
    Rep Power
    5682657

    Default Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    Some of my thoughts. That is a good post and sums up why I don't practice the isosceles stance. I think it's impossible to simulate the mental aspect of a real-world scenario in training. So obviously, the next best thing is to be taught by people who have been in numerous real-world scenarios.

    Martial arts is mainly a sport in this country. The majority of them are not teaching you how to kill people. Even stepped up with this MMA rage, there is still a degree of civility to it. I think people also have misconceptions about knives from watching too many Steven Sagal movies. At very close range, a guy who knows what he's doing with a knife is gonna fillet the majority of people before they have a chance to draw, period. You try to disarm (by hand) a half-capable guy whose holding a knife, you're getting cut in the process, period.

    Lastly, the mental aspect is half the battle and it's not just about confidence and controlling fear. The best fighters I've known (I'm not talking about "controlled" fights in schools, rings, or bars) enjoyed confrontations as a test and were paradoxically self-destructive in their personal lives. Their frame-of-minds were innate and not something that could be easily taught. So in that regard, if you're gonna deal with nutbars, you need to start thinking like one. Just my 2 cents. I look forward to reading more.
    Last edited by JP8; May 28th, 2011 at 02:38 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Uniontown, Pennsylvania
    (Fayette County)
    Posts
    2,195
    Rep Power
    16699917

    Default Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Oh, I know. Like I said I am not going to keep my mouth shut about it anymore.


    Please keep speaking up!
    Your points are extremely valid and will probably save a few peoples lives (those that practice your methods).
    "One must be a fox to recognize traps, and a lion to frighten wolves” ~ Machiavelli

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Collier Twp, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    1,022
    Rep Power
    10476235

    Default Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    OK, my opinion (for what it is worth) based on 25+ years of doing this stuff.

    Lots of guys/schools/etc... trying to make a buck teaching this stuff. Some excellent, some good, and some not so much.

    Guys with a DT background want to emphasize the DT/HTH aspects. Guys with a firearms background want to emphasize the shooting aspects.

    My feeling is (along with others mind you) that one should try to get as close to an ALL AROUND training program/curriculum as one can. Realizing that there are sometimes limiting or mitigating circumstances regarding one’s ability to perform certain types of responses/drills/exercises.

    Yep, shooting is important, as is force on force, as is empty hand techniques, as is decision making scenarios, as is use of force training, as is.................

    If one honestly believes that doing only one aspect of this stuff is important, one may be caught on the short end - when it is their turn.
    Tomorrow's battle is won during today's practice.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Primos, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
    Age
    51
    Posts
    4,861
    Rep Power
    21474854

    Default Re: Too important to kee my mouth shut anymore Part I

    I will be blunt, I don't train at all because I can not afford it at this time. With that being said When I can train it will be something like what the op suggests. I have always thought it funny when I see some of the shooting shows on television that it is always in daytime and the shooters don't seem to be worried about someone shooting back.
    What I want to get from training at first is the abillity to survive real senarios in a realistic way. I just want to be able to go home to my family safe and sound. Now on the other hand when I have a good grasp on the basics I will add to that with more specialized training if money permits.
    Some people just plain suck.
    If you're gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough.

Page 1 of 11 12345 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Like acid in my mouth
    By FMJ in forum General
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: July 22nd, 2009, 12:51 AM
  2. OUT OF THE MOUTH OF BABES
    By larrymeyer in forum General
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: September 6th, 2008, 12:23 PM
  3. Bug in the mouth
    By andrewjs18 in forum General
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: June 18th, 2008, 10:13 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •