Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default OC question / State park Concealment

    Ok, I hate to ask this very Noobish questions, and I likewise hate to offer any distractions from the media circus that is starting to swarm around Marks PPD fight (good luck by the way.. we're all pulling for you).. but I'm slightly concerned about the legal definition of "concealed".

    As I have mentioned before on a previous (very funny) thread, I like to walk in the park with the kids, wife, mother, whoever.. The entire walk is pretty secluded, so as always my g21 companion is with me. There is a good 2 mile stretch of walking before you even get to the park entrance; I usually just OC this section because it is comfortable and then CC on the actual state park grounds. My method of CC`ing is simply tossing the ole` shirt over the gun. My question is: what defines concealed carry? My G21 prints very bad, so it's probably no mystery to anybody that I'm carrying. My fear is that it doesn't adequately count as concealing.

    I was so concerned by this that I switched to my P3AT until I got some good advice on the issue. As you can well imagine, I'd really like to go back to a gun bigger than the palm of my hand
    I am not a lawyer !!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    In Pa I'm not aware of any definition of concealed. AFAIC if you are attempting to conceal the firearm no matter how poorly you’re GTG. If your holster is intended for concealment and that is your intent what are they going to do?
    FUCK BIDEN

  3. #3
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    I'm unaware of any statutory or case law definition for Pa.

    North Dakota statutes provides a working definition as:

    62.1-04-01. Definition of concealed. A firearm or dangerous weapon is concealed if it is carried in such a manner as to not be discernible by the ordinary observation of a passerby. There is no requirement that there be absolute invisibility of the firearm or dangerous weapon, merely that it not be ordinarily discernible.
    Obviously, being an out-of-state statute, the definition is not binding on a Pa trier-of-fact though, IMO, it does provide some meaningful guidance.

    Your best defense it to maximize concealment while in the park. If "My G21 prints very bad, so it's probably no mystery to anybody that I'm carrying." then you might want to re-visit your carry method.
    IANAL

  4. #4
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    As mentioned above, PA lacks such definition. So the courts would rely on case law first, State first in preference, then Federal.. If we lack case law, they would then decide using wording from states that have similar laws, or the common definition.

    What tl_3237 provide above is the most likely version they would cite to.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

    Don't end up in my signature!

  5. #5
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    A friend of mine is a cop in Harrisburg and he told me a while ago that if any article of clothing hinders a handgun from being completely visible, then it's considered concealed. He said that even if your shirt slips over the grip, but not over the whole handgun, they you are still considered as concealing it. If it is under your shirt, printing or not, you are concealed.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    Quote Originally Posted by JTokash View Post
    A friend of mine is a cop in Harrisburg and he told me a while ago that if any article of clothing hinders a handgun from being completely visible, then it's considered concealed. He said that even if your shirt slips over the grip, but not over the whole handgun, they you are still considered as concealing it. If it is under your shirt, printing or not, you are concealed.

    He might be a cop, but he just made that up. I'm willing to admit to being mistaken though, so ask him to cite the part of the Pa Uniform Firearms Act that states such.

    'Cause we'd all like to know, for future reference.
    While many claim to support the right, precious few support the practice.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    He might be a cop, but he just made that up. I'm willing to admit to being mistaken though, so ask him to cite the part of the Pa Uniform Firearms Act that states such.

    'Cause we'd all like to know, for future reference.
    I don't think he made it up, but rather I am guessing that's what they are told they can get away with. I agree that there's no definite wording in law, but it's more of a way that allows cops to engage a person with a handgun on more than a "casual discussion" basis... sort of an easy way in for a detainment. They don't *have to* engage a person if their shirt just slips over the butt of their gun, but it gives them some level of justification to detain someone if they want to check for a LTCF, which might lead them to find out more about the person: maybe they don't have one, maybe they have a warrant for their arrest... God only knows.

    I'm not saying that I like it, or agree with it, but that's basically how it was explained to me by a undercover narcotics officer, someone I've known for 17 years.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    I also carry in a state park, Promise Land in the Poconos. I do not concern myself with printing as long as my shirt stays down. Good luck finding a park ranger, they are becoming rare as hens teeth! See below.......

    I was driving around the lake and saw an open window on a cabin. The screen was out as well. I stopped an took a look to confirm it was not broken into. Not seeing any signs of force I went to report the unsecure cabin to a ranger. There was none to be found. I reported it to a random park employee that I found near the rangers cabin.
    Aggies Coach Really ??? Take off the tin foil bro.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    Quote Originally Posted by JTokash View Post
    A friend of mine is a cop in Harrisburg and he told me a while ago that if any article of clothing hinders a handgun from being completely visible, then it's considered concealed. He said that even if your shirt slips over the grip, but not over the whole handgun, they you are still considered as concealing it. If it is under your shirt, printing or not, you are concealed.
    So a holster conceals a firearm then too right?

    Your friend may have been told that, but it's a completely made-up and arbitrary definition.

    Of course, that's unless there's case law that sets precedent in Pennsylvania about what concealed actually means.

    Quote Originally Posted by JTokash View Post
    I don't think he made it up, but rather I am guessing that's what they are told they can get away with. I agree that there's no definite wording in law, but it's more of a way that allows cops to engage a person with a handgun on more than a "casual discussion" basis... sort of an easy way in for a detainment. They don't *have to* engage a person if their shirt just slips over the butt of their gun, but it gives them some level of justification to detain someone if they want to check for a LTCF, which might lead them to find out more about the person: maybe they don't have one, maybe they have a warrant for their arrest... God only knows.

    I'm not saying that I like it, or agree with it, but that's basically how it was explained to me by a undercover narcotics officer, someone I've known for 17 years.
    Where's the justification? I certainly don't see it. When a shirt slips over the butt of a gun it doesn't give the cop any facts to arise suspicion that the gun is carried unlawfully.

    You could ask that undercover narcotics officer how a slight covering by clothing provides suspicion that the firearm is being carried illegally. I'd love to know what facts provide the basis for that suspicion, since reasonable suspicion needs to be based on facts.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: OC question / State park Concealment

    @IronSight:

    I'm just telling you what he told me. How many times have we heard that cops don't know the law? If he's wrong, then he's wrong. I'm not saying he's right. If there is no law, then what do you expect the cops to do? Look the other way? It is part of their job to look for suspicious activities. Concealing a handgun is a crime if the person doesn't have a LTCF, so it's their job to investigate it. Just because a person is trying to OC, and by accident their handgun becomes concealed... how does a cop know that? To them, the person has been CC'ing it all the time. Like it or not, that just seems to be the way it is.

    If you want to argue with the cops, go for it, it's no skin off my teeth. I don't give a flying screw; I have my LTCF, all of my handguns are legally owned, and I have nothing to hide. If a cop wants to stop me because my handgun is printing (OWB holster) under my t-shirt, so be it, I really don't care other than the 5-10 minutes wasted that it will take for him/her to check if my LTCF is valid.
    If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.

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