Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Please don’t forget to Vote for Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff on May 17th and November 8th.

    I’m a veteran and a life member of the NRA. It’s my promise that I will vigorously enforce the law while defending the civil rights of Philadelphians - including their right to keep and bear arms.

    Check out my website at www.westforsheriff.com

    Thanks
    Josh West

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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Very well, as a voting Philadelphian, I'll presume this isn't a drive-by and bite:

    • How do you intend to help correct the general misconceptions amongst Philadelphia law enforcement on carrying firearms, concealed or openly?
    • Per your site, it seems you intend to begin collecting some of the many fees and fines that have historically uncollected. How do you intend to begin restoring this lost revenue to the city?
    • The Philadelphia Sheriff is in charge of security in court rooms. In Pennsylvania, it is prohibited that firearms or dangerous weapons be brought into court facilities, and required that court facilities supply a place to check weapons on premises (per 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 913). While there are currently facilities to check firearms in the criminal courts of Philadelphia, civil courts at City Hall provide no such firearm check. Have a quick look around the PAFOA boards and you'll see numerous complaints about and problems resulting from this. What would you do to address it?


    For those reading along, Mr. West's site is here:

    http://www.westforsheriff.com/


    And his positions are here:

    http://www.westforsheriff.com/Positions/positions.html


    I would presume the most efficient manner for Mr. West to obtain support from Philadelphia PAFOA-ers would be to show up and say hello at the rally on the 14th.

    -chivalrouscarry

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Let me answer in kind:
    • How do you intend to help correct the general misconceptions amongst Philadelphia law enforcement on carrying firearms, concealed or openly?

    Open Carry is legal in Pennsylvania; there will be no question amongst my deputies of this. In the United States we have a presumption of innocence; therefore, I take the position that, even though Philadelphia has a permit-required exception, the mere fact that a person is open carrying isn’t probable cause to stop and inquire. This is similar to the theory that simply because someone is driving a motor vehicle isn’t, in and of its self, sufficient cause to stop them to ascertain if they have a driver’s license (it’s also in accordance with MPOETC guidance). As Sheriff, I won’t have any direct control over PPD Officers; however, I will have a voice with the Commissioner and the DA.

    • Per your site, it seems you intend to begin collecting some of the many fees and fines that have historically uncollected. How do you intend to begin restoring this lost revenue to the city?

    The Sheriff’s dept is meant to be self sufficient. Each service the Sheriff performs has a fee associated with it. I intend to run the Office like a business; jobs come in, invoices go out. As the website states, I intend to move Sheriff’s sales into the digital age by holding auctions on EBay instead of at an obscure location at inconvenient times in West Philadelphia. This will widen the customer base thus selling the properties at higher rates, producing more revenue returned to the dispossessed owner, higher commissions for the department, and ultimately revenue for the city. I will run the department on the fees and commissions we generate and turn the excess over to the city.

    • The Philadelphia Sheriff is in charge of security in court rooms. In Pennsylvania, it is prohibited that firearms or dangerous weapons be brought into court facilities, and required that court facilities supply a place to check weapons on premises (per 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 913). While there are currently facilities to check firearms in the criminal courts of Philadelphia, civil courts at City Hall provide no such firearm check. Have a quick look around the PAFOA boards and you'll see numerous complaints about and problems resulting from this. What would you do to address it?

    I’m in and out of City hall all the time. The fact that the firearms check is across the street in the CJC has never seemed to be that much of an inconvenience to me. The other court houses (Family, Traffic, & Municipal court) are a different story. My last experience in Traffic Court was in the ‘90s and I will say it was certainly not in keeping with the spirit of §913 in that I had to walk to Police HQ to turn in my weapon.

    Further, the sign at the Philadelphia CJC states that weapons other than firearms will be confiscated. However, §913 isn’t limited to just firearms but also includes “…or for the checking of other dangerous weapons that are not otherwise prohibited by law…”. Under my tenure as Sheriff, legal tools such as knives, Gerber tools, etc. will no longer be illegally confiscated but checked into lockers in accordance with the law.

    Long story short, there will be deputies and secure storage lockers at every Court facility.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_West View Post
    I’m in and out of City hall all the time. The fact that the firearms check is across the street in the CJC has never seemed to be that much of an inconvenience to me.
    This comment concerns me. All due respect, sir, but your personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. What's relevant is the law (emphasis by me):

    § 913.e

    Facilities for checking firearms or other dangerous weapons.--Each county shall make available at or within the building containing the court facility by July 1, 2002, lockers or similar facilities at no charge or cost for the temporary checking of firearms by persons carrying firearms under section 6106(b) or 6109 or for the checking of other dangerous weapons that are not otherwise prohibited by law. Any individual checking a firearm, dangerous weapon or an item deemed to be a dangerous weapon at a court facility must be issued a receipt. Notice of the location of the facility shall be posted as required under subsection (d).
    Regardless of your opinion, if you are elected Sheriff, you have a legal obligation to ensure that all court facilities within your jurisdiction have proper signage and provision for the declaration and safe storage of firearms, ON THE PREMISES.

    So, the question I have for you, on behalf of Philadelphia voters, is: do you intend to fulfill your obligation to guarantee that ALL court facilities in Philadelphia adhere to the law?
    "Political Correctness is just tyranny with manners"
    -Charlton Heston

    "[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
    -James Madison, Federalist Papers, No. 46.

    "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy." [sic]
    -John Quincy Adams

    "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Μολών λαβέ!
    -King Leonidas

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberedRound View Post
    This comment concerns me. All due respect, sir, but your personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. What's relevant is the law (emphasis by me):



    Regardless of your opinion, if you are elected Sheriff, you have a legal obligation to ensure that all court facilities within your jurisdiction have proper signage and provision for the declaration and safe storage of firearms, ON THE PREMISES.

    So, the question I have for you, on behalf of Philadelphia voters, is: do you intend to fulfill your obligation to guarantee that ALL court facilities in Philadelphia adhere to the law?
    To answer your question, YES - ALL COURT FACILITES will adhere to the law. In so far as signage goes, remember “No sign - No crime”.

    You are correct, my job will be to enforce the law - and anyone that knows me will tell you that’s precisely what I will do. The issue here, with respect to these two specific locations (City Hall & the Criminal Justice Center), is that Philadelphia is (surprisingly) in compliance with the law.

    Let me put some background on this - The first floor of City Hall doesn’t qualify as a Court Facility and isn’t a secure location (you can come and go through almost any door and carry a firearm legally). It’s only the second and higher floors that are Court Facilities and thus secure. The security checkpoint for these floors is the entrance at the NE corner of the building.
    §913e doesn’t state “on the premises”, it states “…at or within the building…”. The Sheriff’s desk in the CJC is 50 meters away from the security checkpoint in City Hall. My point is that the proximity of the Sheriff’s desk in the CJC to the NE corner of City hall meets the “at” requirement of §913e. Put another way, if a Sheriff parked a trailer in front of the Court House and put a deputy and lockers in it to secure weapons, would you not consider this “at” the Court Facility?

    Now you may say that this is only my opinion, but I want you consider this: Philadelphia’s notoriously anti-gun and will do anything they can (legal or otherwise) to harass gun owners. The SW corner of city hall is 260 meters (walking the hallways), or almost 2/10ths of a mile, from the NE corner security checkpoint. If the city took your position that the only legal storage is “ON THE PREMESIS”, Philadelphia could put the secure storage at the SW corner of City Hall and make you walk the 260 meters from there to the security checkpoint (as a posed to the 50 meters from the Sheriff’s desk at the CJC).

    In contrast, the DA’s office is over a city block from the CJC. I would consider this as not meeting the “at” requirement of §913e and would require its own secure storage.

    Would it be more convenient to have secure storage at the NE entrance of City Hall? – yes. If, as Sheriff, I have the money to build a secure storage room there I will. But as of now they are in compliance with the law.

    To see precisely what I’m talking about, type these coordinates into Google Earth - City Hall entrance 39° 57.173'N 75° 9.761'W , CJC 39° 57.195'N 75° 9.733'W

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_West View Post
    To answer your question, YES - ALL COURT FACILITES will adhere to the law. In so far as signage goes, remember “No sign - No crime”.
    Understood, but the law still requires you to provide signage that a) it's illegal to carry into a court facility, and b) that the building provides storage for firearms that are carried in. I'd rather the signage and facilities be present, than attempt to walk in armed, get arrested, and have to go to court and be found innocent on an exemption in the law.

    § 913.d
    Posting of notice.--Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each courthouse or other building containing a court facility and each court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a)(1) with respect to a court facility if the notice was not so posted at each public entrance to the courthouse or other building containing a court facility and at the court facility unless the person had actual notice of the provisions of subsection (a).
    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_West View Post
    You are correct, my job will be to enforce the law - and anyone that knows me will tell you that’s precisely what I will do. The issue here, with respect to these two specific locations (City Hall & the Criminal Justice Center), is that Philadelphia is (surprisingly) in compliance with the law.

    Let me put some background on this - The first floor of City Hall doesn’t qualify as a Court Facility and isn’t a secure location (you can come and go through almost any door and carry a firearm legally). It’s only the second and higher floors that are Court Facilities and thus secure. The security checkpoint for these floors is the entrance at the NE corner of the building.
    §913e doesn’t state “on the premises”, it states “…at or within the building…”. The Sheriff’s desk in the CJC is 50 meters away from the security checkpoint in City Hall. My point is that the proximity of the Sheriff’s desk in the CJC to the NE corner of City hall meets the “at” requirement of §913e. Put another way, if a Sheriff parked a trailer in front of the Court House and put a deputy and lockers in it to secure weapons, would you not consider this “at” the Court Facility?

    Now you may say that this is only my opinion, but I want you consider this: Philadelphia’s notoriously anti-gun and will do anything they can (legal or otherwise) to harass gun owners. The SW corner of city hall is 260 meters (walking the hallways), or almost 2/10ths of a mile, from the NE corner security checkpoint. If the city took your position that the only legal storage is “ON THE PREMESIS”, Philadelphia could put the secure storage at the SW corner of City Hall and make you walk the 260 meters from there to the security checkpoint (as a posed to the 50 meters from the Sheriff’s desk at the CJC).

    In contrast, the DA’s office is over a city block from the CJC. I would consider this as not meeting the “at” requirement of §913e and would require its own secure storage.

    Would it be more convenient to have secure storage at the NE entrance of City Hall? – yes. If, as Sheriff, I have the money to build a secure storage room there I will. But as of now they are in compliance with the law.

    To see precisely what I’m talking about, type these coordinates into Google Earth - City Hall entrance 39° 57.173'N 75° 9.761'W , CJC 39° 57.195'N 75° 9.733'W
    I see your point regarding the distance. But despite it's proximity, I would argue your assertion, namely that storage present across the street in another building adheres to the "at" requirement of §913e, is false. I don't see how lockers "at" one building are also "at" another building simultaneously, unless one building is within another.

    To use your example, a mobile trailer can be parked outside and considered "at" a location, just like individuals which are mobile can be "at" a location. That makes sense to me. But to claim that storage within a non-mobile structure such as another building, can be "at" a location across the street from it's own location is illogical.

    Again, I understand your reasoning. However, we're not discussing what's practical or convenient at the moment; we're discussing what's legal. And right now, it seems there's no facility for storage at or within City Hall, which is in violation of §913e, unless your illogical assumption were to hold.

    You've indicated you would do whatever was in your power to provide a storage facility within the building, so that answered my initial question. However, I felt it necessary to comment on the details of your previous post, as I personally don't see it as acceptable as per the letter of the law for the status quo to continue. If you can cite a case or ruling which indicates that the courts have found the facility to be within compliance, I'd be more willing to concede your point, even though I would still disagree with the fundamental assumption that something across the street can be "at" two places at once.
    "Political Correctness is just tyranny with manners"
    -Charlton Heston

    "[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
    -James Madison, Federalist Papers, No. 46.

    "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy." [sic]
    -John Quincy Adams

    "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."
    -Thomas Jefferson

    Μολών λαβέ!
    -King Leonidas

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Quote Originally Posted by chivalrouscarry View Post
    SNIP

    I would presume the most efficient manner for Mr. West to obtain support from Philadelphia PAFOA-ers would be to show up and say hello at the rally on the 14th.

    -chivalrouscarry


    We would welcome you with open arms.

    If you want specific details of the rally please PM me and I'll give you my phone number so we can discuss this...

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua_West View Post
    Let me answer in kind:
    • How do you intend to help correct the general misconceptions amongst Philadelphia law enforcement on carrying firearms, concealed or openly?

    Open Carry is legal in Pennsylvania; there will be no question amongst my deputies of this. In the United States we have a presumption of innocence; therefore, I take the position that, even though Philadelphia has a permit-required exception, the mere fact that a person is open carrying isn’t probable cause to stop and inquire. This is similar to the theory that simply because someone is driving a motor vehicle isn’t, in and of its self, sufficient cause to stop them to ascertain if they have a driver’s license (it’s also in accordance with MPOETC guidance). As Sheriff, I won’t have any direct control over PPD Officers; however, I will have a voice with the Commissioner and the DA.

    • Per your site, it seems you intend to begin collecting some of the many fees and fines that have historically uncollected. How do you intend to begin restoring this lost revenue to the city?

    The Sheriff’s dept is meant to be self sufficient. Each service the Sheriff performs has a fee associated with it. I intend to run the Office like a business; jobs come in, invoices go out. As the website states, I intend to move Sheriff’s sales into the digital age by holding auctions on EBay instead of at an obscure location at inconvenient times in West Philadelphia. This will widen the customer base thus selling the properties at higher rates, producing more revenue returned to the dispossessed owner, higher commissions for the department, and ultimately revenue for the city. I will run the department on the fees and commissions we generate and turn the excess over to the city.

    • The Philadelphia Sheriff is in charge of security in court rooms. In Pennsylvania, it is prohibited that firearms or dangerous weapons be brought into court facilities, and required that court facilities supply a place to check weapons on premises (per 18 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 913). While there are currently facilities to check firearms in the criminal courts of Philadelphia, civil courts at City Hall provide no such firearm check. Have a quick look around the PAFOA boards and you'll see numerous complaints about and problems resulting from this. What would you do to address it?

    I’m in and out of City hall all the time. The fact that the firearms check is across the street in the CJC has never seemed to be that much of an inconvenience to me. The other court houses (Family, Traffic, & Municipal court) are a different story. My last experience in Traffic Court was in the ‘90s and I will say it was certainly not in keeping with the spirit of §913 in that I had to walk to Police HQ to turn in my weapon.

    Further, the sign at the Philadelphia CJC states that weapons other than firearms will be confiscated. However, §913 isn’t limited to just firearms but also includes “…or for the checking of other dangerous weapons that are not otherwise prohibited by law…”. Under my tenure as Sheriff, legal tools such as knives, Gerber tools, etc. will no longer be illegally confiscated but checked into lockers in accordance with the law.

    Long story short, there will be deputies and secure storage lockers at every Court facility.
    As you said oc is legal in Pa. As sheriff how would you gt the point across to Philly pd?

    It is my understanding that a magistrates office is also included as a court facility. I do not know how many magistrates Philly has. But I can think of three different magistrates within 20 miles of my house. Not to mention several court annexes around the area.

    These also need lockers.
    troll Free. It's all in your mind.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Joshua,
    Thanks for coming back and responding, and thanks for being candid. I hope you'll keep up the communication if you get office. The Philly Sheriff Twitter account hasn't got made a single Tweet, but there are some examples of good law enforcement-citizen communication in Philadelphia.

    The Sheriff's office is far from self-sufficient, costing the city $15 million last I checked. Addressing that would be a great contribution. Maybe you could use some of that recovered revenue to establish that secure storage room you mention.

    Thanks again for responding, and welcome to PAFOA!

    -chivalrouscarry

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Joshua West for Philadelphia Sheriff

    Quote Originally Posted by ChamberedRound View Post
    Understood, but the law still requires you to provide signage that a) it's illegal to carry into a court facility, and b) that the building provides storage for firearms that are carried in. I'd rather the signage and facilities be present, than attempt to walk in armed, get arrested, and have to go to court and be found innocent on an exemption in the law.





    I see your point regarding the distance. But despite it's proximity, I would argue your assertion, namely that storage present across the street in another building adheres to the "at" requirement of §913e, is false. I don't see how lockers "at" one building are also "at" another building simultaneously, unless one building is within another.

    To use your example, a mobile trailer can be parked outside and considered "at" a location, just like individuals which are mobile can be "at" a location. That makes sense to me. But to claim that storage within a non-mobile structure such as another building, can be "at" a location across the street from it's own location is illogical.

    Again, I understand your reasoning. However, we're not discussing what's practical or convenient at the moment; we're discussing what's legal. And right now, it seems there's no facility for storage at or within City Hall, which is in violation of §913e, unless your illogical assumption were to hold.

    You've indicated you would do whatever was in your power to provide a storage facility within the building, so that answered my initial question. However, I felt it necessary to comment on the details of your previous post, as I personally don't see it as acceptable as per the letter of the law for the status quo to continue. If you can cite a case or ruling which indicates that the courts have found the facility to be within compliance, I'd be more willing to concede your point, even though I would still disagree with the fundamental assumption that something across the street can be "at" two places at once.
    Your first question – signage is already present in Philadelphia’s court facilities.

    Next, “at” does not mean within. The very fact the statute states “…at or within the building…” means the two terms “at” & “within” have different definitions.

    For instance: is the parking lot or hotel across the street from the airport terminal “at” the airport? I think most people would say yes; would the trailer parked in front of City Hall no longer be “at” City Hall if I took the wheels off of it thus making it no longer mobile?

    You will also find that quite a few counties have their secure storage in a separate building in the immediate vicinity of the court house - Delaware County for instance has theirs with the Park Police across the street.

    I went and pulled Purdon’s Annotated today before I posted just to make sure I wasn’t blowing smoke. There are no court cases dealing with the definition of what “at” the court house means – in the absence of a specific definition (either by the legislature or the court) we fall back to colloquial usage (as noted with the airport). We should remember that a lack of court cases is just as telling as their presence; particularly in the face of a common practice – before you jump, I understand that sometimes it takes a long time for things to make it to court. But let’s not forget that Philadelphia is routinely shot down in court when they do violate the UFA. It’s likely, I believe, that if anyone took Philadelphia to court over this particular issue, the court would find the city to be in substantial performance of their duty to provide secure storage.

    One problem is that many of the court facilities (due to the previous Sheriff’s dereliction of duty) aren’t currently protected by Sheriff’s Deputies; for instance - City Hall has police and contract security, Family Court has security officers hired directly by the FJD, etc. One of my first challenges, along with getting a firm grip on the finances and making the dept. self sufficient, is to yank back from the city this (and a myriad of other) function that is the duty of the Sheriff. Once I’ve made headway on these other issues (deputies in City Hall), I can address smaller ones like secure storage in City Hall instead of across the street.

    Another specific issue to City Hall is that the court rooms & offices are intermingled among City administrative offices across several floors. This means that all the upper floors have to be secure and is why the secure entrance is at the ground floor. The secure entrance is small and really doesn’t have the room to install a secure storage room (this isn’t to say it couldn’t be done).

    A solution to this would be if we were able to get all the judicial functions consolidated onto, perhaps, two floors, we could put the security checkpoint at the entrance to those specific judicial floors. This would give us more than enough room for a proper secure storage room in City Hall collocated with the security checkpoint. Unfortunately, accomplishing this lofty goal would require the cooperation of the City Gov’t, the FJD and a lot of renovation dollars.

    To be pragmatic, I don’t think the City would ever agree to a reorganization of City hall simply because the current intermingling of City administrative offices and Court facilities has allowed them (as it relates to City Hall) to do a legal end-run around §6120 by hiding behind §913.

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