Police confront OCer

[Atomic Dog]

First off, as for the OC in the early morning. Yes, there is a different population who is out and about in the middle of the night and early morning that differs from the afternoon crowd. Sometimes the people out in the morning have other motives and yes, a person who might get a glance in the daytime might get much more scrutiny late at night. It depends on the situation.

Did the cops have a right to question the OP? Because I know that it is perfectly legal I don't have a problem with it. I also don't have a problem with them checking up on the guy either, but they missed the entire point. If the staff was truly worried about the firearm the police should have informed him, and told him to carry on. Besides that they should have just moved on.


It is also interesting that they used the 'friendly conversation" approach. Had the OP asked the officer to leave, or went to get up from the table and leave I'm sure the tone would have become much less friendly.

[Atomic Dog]

Suspicion

Scenario 1:
2 young black guys (at night) walking down the street, one has a tec9 showing from his front pocket (open carry). Do you give him a thumbs up and continue what your doing? (episode from COPS)

Scenario 2: Clean cut white guy riding a motorcycle (daytime) in Wilkinsburg open carrying a Glock on his hip. (I saw this and gave him a double take and continued driving)

Hawk,

Well, #1 matches the description of a population that tends to commit a fair amount of crimes. So by that note they would get more suspicion. If White dudes on motorcycles started robbing or killing people I would give them the stink eye too.

[TonyF]

Dave brings up an interesting issue.

Suspicion.

Since Dave won't "argue the issue" further I have a general question for the masses.

1)If you see someone carrying a handgun in a holster, in the open, would you be suspicious?

No.

2) And more importantly, why?

It is not the "criminal element" modus operandi.

3) It was stated in this thread that: "If I saw someone walk into a restaurant at 3:45 am with a gun on their hip OC'ing I would be suspicious too." Would any of you be less "suspicious" of someone OC'ing at 3:45 in the afternoon? Why?

No. M.O. doesn't fit the profile of armed robbers.

[Pa. Patriot]

First off, as for the OC in the early morning. Yes, there is a different population who is out and about in the middle of the night and early morning that differs from the afternoon crowd. Sometimes the people out in the morning have other motives and yes, a person who might get a glance in the daytime might get much more scrutiny late at night. It depends on the situation.
.

And this is a good example of how each of us puts a differing amount of "weight" on differing variables in assessing our surroundings.

To me, An OC'er is an OCer and I will assess him based on him alone. I can't see the time of day making a lick of difference. After all, if I see someone OC at 3:45AM I too am out, at 3:45 AM. Just because wolves hunt at night does not make a deer a wolf if they are out at night too.

I acknowledge the likelihood of more "undesirables" being out at 3:45 AM but I do not assess people diferently based on the percentage of BG's out. I assess people the same when in a high crime area of philla as I do in a low crime area of Sullivan county.
IOW; I don't consider the likely concentration of BG's when assessing an individual.

[Philadelphia]

Suspicion

Scenario 1:
2 young black guys (at night) walking down the street, one has a tec9 showing from his front pocket (open carry). Do you give him a thumbs up and continue what your doing? (episode from COPS)

Scenario 2: Clean cut white guy riding a motorcycle (daytime) in Wilkinsburg open carrying a Glock on his hip. (I saw this and gave him a double take and continued driving)

Hawk,

You have a point and you know what my answers would be. I'll change it around a little for you and this is real world, not some puke liberal fantasy either (trust me in that I'm no liberal by any stretch, just a realist who tries to keep tabs on what's really going on):

1. 2 punk white male kids in Kangol hats and fur jackets with a tec 9 stuffed in the front of their pants and the butt and foot long high cap magazine sticking out above the belt line, on the East side of the street.

2. 2 clean cut black guys with XDs or Glocks OC in Serpas, on the West side of the street.

An alley behind me (trying to set a scenario I can't just avoid either way).

Which side of the street you think I'm walking on? The guys with the Serpas get the thumbs up as we walk together trying to avoid any interaction with the punks.

[Pa. Patriot]

I also feel that once an officer dawns the badge and is on duty, his personal opinions should be replaced by the official stances of the Commonwealth. Which would be: Freely OC, WE HAVE NOTHING TO SAY REGARDING THIS ISSUE. You cant have unbridled freedom to express personal opinion as, say, a member of the faculty at a university while in the classroom. If you want to comment on OC, catch me when youre off-duty. Otherwise, youre an officer of the law, not a wiseman.

Great post. I quoted the above part because I think it bears repeating as much as possible. The job should make LEO's less likely to editorialize their personal opinions. It simply isn't their place to do so and is a detriment to their profession when they do it.

[ChamberedRound]

RWhiteman, welcome to the forum; an extremely well-written post.

I was surprised too. I thought it was a lock that I'd have to produce those items for them.

I could have whipped 'em both out in the same motion but they never asked. It made me feel good to not have to pull that stuff out over breakfast so I was left with a fairly positive feeling about the whole ordeal afterwards.

There's no way of knowing from that encounter how well they know the UFA, but it's possible they were aware that OC is legal without an LTCF. Even if they didn't know, that doesn't change the law, although it admittedly might have changed the encounter. My opinion, from reading your post, is that they knew the law, knew you were doing nothing wrong, yet still tried to "convince" you that it might not be a good idea, all the while politely coercing information from you.

What I'd be curious to know is: do you feel this was a one-off encounter, or a "we have our eyes on you" situation, where they're implicitly telling you to expect a grilling every time you cross the path of LEO in that town?

[Montanya]

Dave brings up an interesting issue.
1)If you see someone carrying a handgun in a holster, in the open, would you be suspicious?

2) And more importantly, why? Is it because of the implied intent of the OC'er, based on how previous crimes are played out or is it the stigma of the gun? IOW, what are you basing this suspicion on, factually or hypothetically.

3) It was stated in this thread that: "If I saw someone walk into a restaurant at 3:45 am with a gun on their hip OC'ing I would be suspicious too."
Would any of you be less "suspicious" of someone OC'ing at 3:45 in the afternoon? Why?

Opinions?

Would I be suspicious? Not unless the PERSON carrying the gun was acting in some way that would make me uncomfortable, and that is with or without a gun.

[Pa. Patriot]

And I agree with whats being said about OCing automatically equaling suspicion. ....
<snip>
I encourage everybody, especially as fellow firearm owners, to look into the sciences that are related to gathering clues that would otherwise be unavailable to the untrained eye or ear. Basing your suspicion on something as obvious as a holster on somebodys belt might leave you open for an attack from that well dressed man at the end of his rope at the end of the bar.

Great post., This is exactly what I was trying to solicit with my questions.

And in regard to the quoted piece above. I wanted to point out that many of the better tactics schools cover some of this as part of their handgun classes.

Everyone who caries a handgun for SD should seriously consider saving for and making plans to attend some professional training. There's a lot more to it than just the gun.

[Philadelphia]

It is also interesting that they used the 'friendly conversation" approach. Had the OP asked the officer to leave, or went to get up from the table and leave I'm sure the tone would have become much less friendly.

Maybe but you're not allowed to read minds or forecast the future. You may well be right but there's no telling one way or the other. The reason I say that is the cops in the story seemed like decent guys and not the jackass type. It's equally possible that if you are polite and civil (they're people too) and just tell them hey I'm a law abiding citizen, mean no one any harm and really just want to have breakfast in peace they might just take it at that and leave you alone. No way to know unless you try.