Fla. "open carry" bill is no more, sponsor says

[IronSight]

http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/04/2...s-no-more.html

Fla. "open carry" bill is no more, sponsor says


THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- A Senate bill that would have allowed weapons to be openly carried in Florida is no more.
Bill sponsor Greg Evers told senators on Wednesday that the measure (SB 234) was being amended. It is scheduled to go to the Senate floor for a vote on Thursday.
The Baker Republican said language allowing open carry of firearms was taken out and replaced with text that simply decriminalizes the accidental showing of an otherwise lawfully-concealed weapon.
A person with a concealed weapon permit now could be charged with a third-degree misdemeanor for inadvertently showing his or her weapon. The bill's backers say the latest amendment was really the intent of the bill all along.
A companion measure (HB 517) is in the House.

I know that some of these "backers" are NOT happy with the amendment, and that this was not the sole intent of the bill.

OC in Florida just got railroaded, and I'll give you three guesses as to which organization let that happen.

I am more than just a little bit ticked with this at the moment.

Edit to add: Another article

Gun bills appear poised for passage

By Zac Anderson

Published: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 at 7:35 p.m.
Last Modified: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 at 7:35 p.m.

TALLAHASSEE - Following a national trend, Florida is poised to adopt three new laws pushed by gun rights advocates. But the most controversial measure — allowing people to carry guns openly in public — was significantly watered down Wednesday.

Groups ranging from the tourism industry, to retailers and law enforcement had fought the open carry law but dropped their opposition after Sen. Ellyn Bogdanoff, R-Fort Lauderdale, introduced a compromise.

The amended bill protects people with concealed weapons permits who "inadvertently" flash their weapon in public in an nonthreatening manner, but still prohibits the open display of firearms.

...

http://www.heraldtribune.com/article...ed-for-passage

[Yellowfin]

I wonder who were the punks that pushed him away from this.

[PennsyPlinker]

OC in Florida just got railroaded, and I'll give you three guesses as to which organization let that happen.

FOAC? Uh, no.

GOA? Probably not.

I know! I know! But I'm not gonna write it, or the choir will assemble to tell us all how they do more on a national level. Well then, Florida ain't national, so there you go.

[zackattack784]

FOAC? Uh, no.

GOA? Probably not.

I know! I know! But I'm not gonna write it, or the choir will assemble to tell us all how they do more on a national level. Well then, Florida ain't national, so there you go.

I'll say it for you, the NRA.

[PennsyPlinker]

Local officials now face a maximum fine of $5,000 for "knowingly and willfully" adopting local gun laws that are more stringent than state requirements. The bill initially carried a fine of $100,000 and criminal penalties.
Democrats still criticized the legislation for making local officials personally liable. Taxpayers typically pay the cost of lawsuits against public officials.

I would love to see a clause like this in our preemption law - with the criminal penalties left intact of course. This alone could run Philadelphia into the ground monetarily.

"Would you think that there would be anybody more important than a physician in determining what is medically necessary for the safety of a child?" asked Sen. Nan Rich, D-Weston.

You think maybe the parents might have a say, Nan?

[zackattack784]

I would love to see a clause like this in our preemption law - with the criminal penalties left intact of course. This alone could run Philadelphia into the ground monetarily.


You think maybe the parents might have a say, Nan?

Dude, are you crazy? The government knows what's best for everyone. Apparently you didn't pay attention in school...

I agree though, a clause in our preemption law would be AWESOME!

[Lazydog]

Dude, are you crazy? The government knows what's best for everyone. Apparently you didn't pay attention in school...

I think this was before our time. Schools didn't try to tell you back then that the government knew what was best for you. they just learned () us us how the government should work.

I agree though, a clause in our preemption law would be AWESOME!

Now that would be another bill I would stand 100% behind.

[dayid]

Here's what happened to Florida's "Open Carry" Bill:

The group that authored it authored it to be for open-carry. This was good.

When presented to the public (and a lot of the senate), they said "It's just to protect people who can carry concealed but might have their shirt-tail blown up by the wind!" This was the absolute stupidest thing they could've done - and it blew up in their faces. They were told this by many people from the start. If you want open carry, present it to people as open carry. Tell people how many other states have it. Talk about how responsible firearm owners are, etc. Don't make childish excuses for trying to get what you want.

"Accidental exposure" - by the mere nature of not having any statute against it - is not truly illegal - nor prosecutable - in the state of Florida (currently). Hell, printing down here is a joke and no one really ever worries about it. Horror stories about people being beaten by police because their concealed weapon was accidentally exposed are stories that show more of a problem with the police than with the statutes.

So, they presented this very small problem "oh accidental exposure!", and wanted a big solution "being able to openly carry anywhere that I can carry concealed". Instead, a senator gave them a small solution to their small problem. "If the problem is you're worried about being harassed over an accident, then we'll just add in wording saying 'don't harass people over an accident'."

While I don't agree with her amendment (and would have preferred to see the bill pass un-amended), her tactics make perfect sense: Present a small solution for a small problem. You don't replace a bicycle when it gets a flat, you buy a new tire tube.

Our senate is a mess. I watched yesterday and there was so much petty bickering it was ridiculous. Add in these people talking about "I myself have a gun permit" - a what? Oh! That's right! You have something that doesn't even exist in our state (Florida is a concealed weapon license, not a "gun permit"). Glad people who are making our laws don't even know what it is that they're trying to regulate. I'd be half surprised if more than 25% of them could know the difference between a revolver and a crow's ass.

[PennsyPlinker]

Horror stories about people being beaten by police because their concealed weapon was accidentally exposed are stories that show more of a problem with the police than with the statutes.

Sort of like being proned out on the ground with guns pointed at you, or shot in the chest in your own home, huh? Yeah, we know about that up here, and we have the right to open carry.

At least it is progress. I visit family in Florida on a regular basis, and I am always armed. It causes me concern sometimes when I am outside and the wind from the bay starts whipping my shirt around.

[dayid]

Florida's chapters on Firearms (relatively short compared to some, I believe): http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...790/ch0790.htm

At least it is progress. I visit family in Florida on a regular basis, and I am always armed. It causes me concern sometimes when I am outside and the wind from the bay starts whipping my shirt around.

I think you're good here because this would not be "ordinary sight" (as - if the majority of the time you are standing, you "ordinary" have it covered...)

That's the unfortunate thing with a lot of our laws, the "reasonable person" standards. The law that currently is considered Florida's "brandishing" law (note: Florida doesn't recognize/define brandish, so technically there is no law against it) is

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Some of the Florida group yesterday - when they introduced the amendment to avoid trouble for accidental exposure - were trying to claim that "threatening", etc, are too hard to define: Yet here we have Florida law that is 25 years old that uses the words "careless" "rude" "threatening" - all of which are quite open to interpretation.

Some will quote the "careless" portion of this as being a crime to have a shirt-tail flap up. I heartily believe that while a police officer may agree - ultimately our judicial system is strong enough to read the associated words (rude/angry/threatening) to realize that "careless" here is more closely meant to mean "dangerously" rather than "oopsy".

Then we have "ordinary sight":

(3)(a) "Concealed weapon" means any dirk, metallic knuckles, slungshot, billie, tear gas gun, chemical weapon or device, or other deadly weapon carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal the weapon from the ordinary sight of another person.

The legislature carefully crafted this to not say "from sight of another person" but rather chose "from ordinary sight". I think that is quite telling.

Then our statute against open carry:

790.053 Open carrying of weapons.--

(1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device.

But wait... we have a big exception....

(3) LAWFUL USES.--The provisions of ss. 790.053 quote above and 790.06 the concealed-carry statute do not apply in the following instances, and, despite such sections, it is lawful for the following persons to own, possess, and lawfully use firearms and other weapons, ammunition, and supplies for lawful purposes:

This list has quite a few good exceptions. A few:

(f) Guards or messengers of common carriers, express companies, armored car carriers, mail carriers, banks, and other financial institutions, while actually employed in and about the shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure, bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state;

(...)
(g) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive weapons from the United States or from this state, or regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for target, skeet, or trap shooting, while at or going to or from shooting practice; or regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for modern or antique firearms collecting, while such members are at or going to or from their collectors' gun shows, conventions, or exhibits;

(...)
(h) A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition; Oddball in that only your hunting must be "lawful"

(...)
(j) A person firing weapons for testing or target practice under safe conditions and in a safe place not prohibited by law or going to or from such place;

(...)
(k) A person firing weapons in a safe and secure indoor range for testing and target practice;

(...)
(n) A person possessing arms at his or her home or place of business;

So, there're actually a lot of times that you can still openly carry in Florida, if you know the statutes. The other problem (again, legal interpretations), is the "to or from such place". Ideally, we (to play safe) interpret that to mean "without stops". However, if I would like to walk/drive/bicycle to my local firing range, I could open carry there and back. Same if I'm going to a gun show, same if I'm going fishing or camping. Heck, if I'm just going hiking I may have a fishing rod just in case I find a good hole. It's silly that we have such hoops to jump through, and I still hope that open carry eventually gets passed here, but until then, you'll find me on the river with a fishing pole