Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default carrying someone elses gun?

    I know this question has probably been asked before, but i didnt feel like searching for it so ill ask again. In PA, what are the laws on carrying someone elses legally registered handgun if i have my concealed weapons permit?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    short answer: there is no registration in PA, so that point is moot.

    since you have a license to carry firearms, other people can loan their firearms to you.

    there is a gray area concerning the loaner and the returning of the firearm if the person doesn't have a LTCF of their own, but in my opinion, there is nothing to suggest in the laws that doing so would be illegal.

    other, more knowledgeable people will chime in soon enough, but that's basically the answer you are looking for. take care and welcome to the boards.
    Last edited by uniballin; March 23rd, 2011 at 09:45 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    You hit the nail right smack dab on the head.

    There's no such thing as a "legally-registered handgun" in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Other states may require registration thereof, but not this one.

    There's no such thing as a "concealed weapons permit" in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. We do have a License to Carry Firearms (LTCF), which allows one to carry concealed, but it also allows other things otherwise prohibited by law.

    One of which is - if you have an LTCF you can carry someone else's firearm (i.e., they can loan it to you).

  4. #4
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    first off, let me just say thank you for your timely replies. now as far as the ccw i realze my terminology may not have been completely accurate, but i was just trying to et the point across that i am legally able to carry a concealed firearm. as far as "no such thing as a "legally registered handgun"", im a bit confused. I know long guns are not registered, but are handguns not registered upon purchase to the purchasing individual? if thats the case buying and selling handguns off would require no paperwork? and so, say i sell my gun, and it gets sold off several other times without transferring ownership, and someone uses it to commit a crime would it not come back on me?

  5. #5
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy13 View Post
    first off, let me just say thank you for your timely replies. now as far as the ccw i realze my terminology may not have been completely accurate, but i was just trying to et the point across that i am legally able to carry a concealed firearm. as far as "no such thing as a "legally registered handgun"", im a bit confused. I know long guns are not registered, but are handguns not registered upon purchase to the purchasing individual? if thats the case buying and selling handguns off would require no paperwork? and so, say i sell my gun, and it gets sold off several other times without transferring ownership, and someone uses it to commit a crime would it not come back on me?
    you are confusing the record of sales database with a firearm registry. the pennsylvania state police often use this record of sales database as an illegal, incomplete registry. all handgun transfers (except for a few scenarios such as between spouses and parent -> child) must go through a FFL (federal firearm licensee). the FFL will call the PSP and the buyer will undergo a background check through PICS (pennsylvania instant check system). if the buyer passes, a small fee is usually paid to the FFL for doing the transfer, and the transfer is complete. the gun is not registered to the person, but the state police now have a record that the transfer took place.
    Last edited by uniballin; March 23rd, 2011 at 10:40 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    http://www.pafoa.org/law

    Owning Firearms

    1. Do I have to register my firearms in Pennsylvania?

    No, in fact in Pennsylvania it is actually illegal for any government or police agency to keep a registry of firearms per 18 Pa.C.S. 6111.4 (Registration of firearms). If you legally possess bring your firearms into the Pennsylvania or come into possession of the firearms legally, no further action is required.

    It should be noted however that all transfers of handguns in Pennsylvania are required to go through the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS) and as such the Pennsylvania State Police keep a "Sales Database" of all handguns purchased within the Commonwealth. While almost any casual observer can see that this database clearly violates the spirit of 18 Pa.C.S. 6111.4 (Registration of firearms), in the Pennsylvania Supreme Court agreed with the Pennsylvania State Police that because the database is not a complete record of all handgun ownership (as people bringing handguns into the state do not have to register them), it does not.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mK2JYfZAmA When will America become America?

  7. #7
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    Although you can legally do it you should also be prepared for the illegal taking of the firearm should you have a bad LEO experience. There are cases where firearms have been taking away from both a LTCF and FFL holders and held until ownership was confirmed.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    After having read the laws, I don't see anywhere that it clearly says being in possession of another's gun with permission while abiding all relevant carry laws (ie having a PA LTCF if concealed or in a car, etc.) is lawful.

    Can anyone produce that? Reason I ask is because a co-worker is trying to argue that is UNlawful, I disagree, and would like to see how it is actually worded. Or is it because it is not listed as UNlawful as per 18 Pa.C.S. 6111.4, that it is therefore lawful? Thanks for the help in advance.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/...ms-prohibited/

    18 Pa.C.S. 6115: Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited
    (a) Offense defined.--No person shall make any loan secured by mortgage, deposit or pledge of a firearm, nor, except as provided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to the provisions of this subchapter.
    (b) Exception.--
    (1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the following apply:
    (i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to licenses).
    (ii) The person who receives the firearm is exempt from licensing.
    (iii) The person who receives the firearm is engaged in a hunter safety program certified by the Pennsylvania Game Commission or a firearm training program or competition sanctioned or approved by the National Rifle Association.
    (iv) The person who receives the firearm meets all of the following:
    (A) Is under 18 years of age.
    (B) Pursuant to section 6110.1 (relating to possession of firearm by minor) is under the supervision, guidance and instruction of a responsible individual who:
    (I) is 21 years of age or older; and
    (II) is not prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms).
    (v) The person who receives the firearm is lawfully hunting or trapping and is in compliance with the provisions of Title 34 (relating to game).
    (vi) A bank or other chartered lending institution is able to adequately secure firearms in its possession.
    (2) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the transfer of a firearm under 20 Pa.C.S. Ch. 21 (relating to intestate succession) or by bequest if the individual receiving the firearm is not precluded from owning or possessing a firearm under section 6105.
    (3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the loaning or giving of a firearm to another in one's dwelling or place of business if the firearm is retained within the dwelling or place of business.
    (4) Nothing in this section shall prohibit the relinquishment of firearms to a third party in accordance with 23 Pa.C.S. 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment to third party for safekeeping).
    The 2A does not GIVE us the right. It tells the gov they can not INFRINGE our right.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: carrying someone elses gun?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoMoreOp4 View Post
    After having read the laws, I don't see anywhere that it clearly says being in possession of another's gun with permission while abiding all relevant carry laws (ie having a PA LTCF if concealed or in a car, etc.) is lawful.

    Can anyone produce that? Reason I ask is because a co-worker is trying to argue that is UNlawful, I disagree, and would like to see how it is actually worded. Or is it because it is not listed as UNlawful as per 18 Pa.C.S. 6111.4, that it is therefore lawful? Thanks for the help in advance.
    Under Federal law, any time you take possession and control of a firearm, a "transfer" has taken place. Handgun transfers must go through an FFL. There is provision in Federal law for lending a firearm, but (a) the length of time for which a loan is allowed is not stipulated; and (more important) (b) the provision specifically says for lawful "sporting" purposes. There is nothing "sporting" about carrying a sidearm for self defense, so it would appear (to this non-lawyer, anyway) that it is NOT legal to borrow or to lend a firearm for any self-defense related purpose. It also stipulates "temporary." Although the term is not defined, it would appear to connote a relatively short period of time.

    Read #1: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

    Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

    A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

    [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

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