Transfer to C&R

[LastManOut]

I had a guy wanting to buy a WWII pistol from me at a gun show recently. He showed me a Zerox copy of a C&R license and said we did not need to go through a FFL dealer.
What is the deal with selling a handgun privately in this situation.

[VariableFeedback]

The C&R license is a FFL license. If the pistol is C&R eligble, no other FFL dealer is requried. Somebody should correct me if I'm wrong, thought.

[rwilson452]

I have serious doubts that a WWII pistol is covered under the C&R license.

[knight0334]

Why not? All they have to be is 50years(+/-) old or prove to be collectible if aged less than that. The BATF lists the firearms that are considered C&R.

There are plenty of WWII aged items in the C&R list.

[BronzeDragon]

My CZ-52 is post WWII and it's C&R eligibile.

But date of manufacture is part of it. There are 1911's that are C&R eligible and a whole bunch that are not.

There is a big list on the atf webpage.

BronzeDragon

[ar15jules]

If you are unsure of the list, be safe and go to a dealer. If the guy wants the pistol bad enough, he will comply.
Jules

[Pa. Patriot]

I had a guy wanting to buy a WWII pistol from me at a gun show recently. He showed me a Zerox copy of a C&R license and said we did not need to go through a FFL dealer.
What is the deal with selling a handgun privately in this situation.

A C&R FFL is an FFL for transfer purposes when it comes to his acquiring (not selling) of C&R eligible firearms.

So yes, you can deal directly with him without going through an FFL for a handgun PROVIDED:
1) He is indeed a 03FFL
2) The firearm is indeed C&R eligible.

This is very easy to determine.
first, #1: 03FFL's are not verifyable through ATF "EZ-Check" website. As such you must call the ATF licensing div and inquire. You call the 800# and give them the FFL# for verification.
If you were shipping the firearm you would be good to go as the ATF verified the FFL and their address.
Now, in person you run into a dillemma. You may not be able to verify the license on the spot (no phone/time/etc). To not do so would be risky as a photocopy of an FFL is easy to obtain. Checking it against his state ID would be good but not foolproof. If he has a fake FFL copy he has likely altered it to match his ID.
Dealing with an 03FFL in person is a judgment call. Many 01FFL's won't do it. I will, but only if I can verify the license.

#2. The ATF has a list of C&R eligible firearms. All title 1 firearms become eligible at 50 years of age. Firearms are also specifically added to the C&R list by the ATF. Example: Yugo SKS.
The list is easily found on atf.gov

[mauser]

Why not? All they have to be is 50years(+/-) old or prove to be collectible if aged less than that. The BATF lists the firearms that are considered C&R.

There are plenty of WWII aged items in the C&R list.

Simply being 50 years old doesn't automatically qualify a gun for C&R, although that is one of the most well known and widely cited criteria. There are a lot of guns more than 50 years old that do not qualify, and some that are less than 50 that do. If the gun meets the basic criteria and is on the list but has been modified, it is no longer C&R eligible unless deemed as such by the BATFE. (One example is an Enfield Carbine that was rearsenaled. In it's original configuration it was a longer gun and is C&R eligible. The shortening of the barrel, even though it was a military arsenal change, disqualified them from C&R status. Another was a Star pistol that had a safety added for export to the US. Adding the safety disqualified it from C&R eligibility, but if I remember correctly, BATFE eventually added the safety modified pistol to the list of C&R eligible guns and AIMSurplus promptly sold out the rest of their inventory. [If these examples are erroneous I apologize, but I got the information from the AIMSurplus web site when they had those guns in stock, and the reason I remember them is because I considered getting one of each]). Bottom line is this; If you hold an FFL and are legally allowed to sell guns, and the buyer holds a C&R license and is legally allowed to purchase C&R guns from you and everything looks OK, you still have to be very sure that the gun you're selling does indeed meet the criteria and is eligible for a C&R sale. If it was me and I wasn't 100% positive, I'd be looking for help and guidance before I make the sale, and if I still wasn't absolutely positive, I'd go through the customary channels of a non C&R sale. It's not worth risking your license for one sale.

[Pa. Patriot]

The way it is written on the ATF documentation is 50 years or older are automatic unless specifically excluded by ATF.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm

WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?

As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.




The list(s)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

[mauser]

The way it is written on the ATF documentation is 50 years or older are automatic unless specifically excluded by ATF.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm

WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?

As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 178.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.




The list(s)
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

I will not argue that point, that is correct as stated. but as an exception, I thought all of my model 96 Mausers were C&R eligible. Then I was made aware that the ones that were drilled & tapped for scope mounts, bolt handle modified, and the safety changed, were no longer C&R eligible, therefore I only have one that is still a C&R gun. The point I'm getting at is that there are guns more than 50 years old that do not qualify because they have been modified, some were military arsenal modifications. When that's the case, I'd not want to risk my license by making an improper sale or purchase.
If I'm wrong I'll gladly stand corrected.