Man accidentally shoots himself at gun class

**rwb1500** · March 11th, 2011, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by mrnyman

That is why i never recommend Single actions ang Glock type firearms for Beginners, mind you if it were a series 80 1911 it would never happen, but a Browning - no FP lock no grip safety?

No way he shot himself the way they are saying, i believe the gun dropped and he tried to catch it or he could nt figure out how to tajke the safety off so he turned it around to fiddle with it , aGAIN NO GRIP SAFETY OR fp LOCK TO PREVENT FIRING once he released the grip.

RIP, sir.

Mike

A properly trained beginner can shoot any and everything. Knowledge is your safety.

However I do agree with the drop and grab hypothesis. Seems far more likely than getting your left thumb in the trigger guard and the gun rotating around to face you.

**Big Chuck** · March 11th, 2011, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by mrnyman

That is why i never recommend Single actions ang Glock type firearms for Beginners, mind you if it were a series 80 1911 it would never happen, but a Browning - no FP lock no grip safety?

No way he shot himself the way they are saying, i believe the gun dropped and he tried to catch it or he could nt figure out how to tajke the safety off so he turned it around to fiddle with it , aGAIN NO GRIP SAFETY OR fp LOCK TO PREVENT FIRING once he released the grip.

RIP, sir.

Mike

This wouldn't have happened with a Glock either.

**IronSight** · March 11th, 2011, 01:25 AM

Remember this ladies and gentleman every time an anti-gun activist starts demanding mandatory training for ownership or carry of a firearm.

You can't teach mastery of fundamental skills of anything in just a couple hours, even basic skills take time to learn (speaking from a perspective gleaned from SCUBA training, mind you) ... the idea that you can teach someone new techniques with new weapons in a brief period of time, off-handed no less, is absolutely absurd.

Tyranny and oppression have claimed yet another life it seems.

**King 5.45** · March 11th, 2011, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by rwb1500

A properly trained beginner can shoot any and everything. Knowledge is your safety.

I've spent hours on and off the range with beginners. Some you can reach and impart the most important rules to, and some only act like they're listening to matter-of-life-and-death instructions, which they prove by going into pure fucktard mode as soon as your back is turned. As a society we're become used to the idea of cartoon characters springing back from mortal wounds and clearly impossible cop and spy show cliffhangers resolving themselves so that the series lead is back on your TV screen next week. Combine that with the stupidity of the mass of humanity, and you get the glazed-over friggin' eyes of daydreaming Rambo wannabes, fingers inside the trigger guard without a selected target under aim — I've seen it all and I don't take it personally any more. I correct it, and if it won't stay corrected, I leave the range and direct the attention of the RSO to the issue.

**mrnyman** · March 11th, 2011, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by IronSight

Remember this ladies and gentleman every time an anti-gun activist starts demanding mandatory training for ownership or carry of a firearm.

You can't teach mastery of fundamental skills of anything in just a couple hours, even basic skills take time to learn (speaking from a perspective gleaned from SCUBA training, mind you) ... the idea that you can teach someone new techniques with new weapons in a brief period of time, off-handed no less, is absolutely absurd.

Tyranny and oppression have claimed yet another life it seems.

I agree totally , this BS "class" is what got this man killed, this class should not be neccessary in the first place, if the man had spent time at a range on his own time getting familiar with his gun this most likely would not have happened.

**sid** · March 11th, 2011, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by mrnyman

That is why i never recommend Single actions ang Glock type firearms for Beginners, mind you if it were a series 80 1911 it would never happen, but a Browning - no FP lock no grip safety?

No way he shot himself the way they are saying, i believe the gun dropped and he tried to catch it or he could nt figure out how to tajke the safety off so he turned it around to fiddle with it , aGAIN NO GRIP SAFETY OR fp LOCK TO PREVENT FIRING once he released the grip.

RIP, sir.

Mike

I think you are mistaking a grip safty with a firing pin block. The block prevents the firing pin from moving unless the trigger is pulled. If he caught the gun with a finger in the trigger guard then this would not stop it from firing. If the gun hit the floor, then it would stop the gun from firing. The firing pin block is moved by linkage connected with the trigger.

I agree with others that it is highly unlikely that he shot himself while manipulating the safety and that he may have lost control of it and in catching it he shot himself. I can't see how he could have unintentionally pointed it at himself to take the safety off.

There's not enough info. in the article to determine how long they were in the class and if they went over the manuvers prior to using live ammo.

The fact that the guy switched from a revolver to a semi-auto should have sent up a red flag to the instructer for him to not let this guy try this weak hand maneuver w/live ammo..DUH...

Sid

**Neko456** · March 11th, 2011, 05:37 PM

I agree a poorly ran class, usually they check your gun at the door, or have you run a safety check during the safety drill. With a sign stating "No loaded Guns in class, until instructed to load" and a Verbal.

But sometimes you can think you know too much, even as a Professional or LEO that why we have rules and Range instructors. AD charges happen a lot even with Professionals when they get tried, dick around or drink and play with guns.
Break the rules and it don't matter who you are.

**WastedTime** · March 12th, 2011, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by PAS&W

Untrained novice shooter - given unfamiliar gun - told to use
his nondominant hand to fire it.

Boy - some Lawyer could really have a PayDay working for
the relatives

I could not agree more. I wonder if the instructor was a police officer and the department is trying to cover up for him/her to save the instructors butt. It really makes me mad that this man was allowed to use a gun that he was unfamiliar with.

I am no gun expert but I read A LOT about a firearm before I buy or even approach it. Education is the best defense against these kinds of accidents.

**GunLawyer001** · March 12th, 2011, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by IronSight

Remember this ladies and gentleman every time an anti-gun activist starts demanding mandatory training for ownership or carry of a firearm.

You can't teach mastery of fundamental skills of anything in just a couple hours, even basic skills take time to learn (speaking from a perspective gleaned from SCUBA training, mind you) ... the idea that you can teach someone new techniques with new weapons in a brief period of time, off-handed no less, is absolutely absurd.

Tyranny and oppression have claimed yet another life it seems.

Originally Posted by mrnyman

I agree totally , this BS "class" is what got this man killed, this class should not be neccessary in the first place, if the man had spent time at a range on his own time getting familiar with his gun this most likely would not have happened.

Sorry, but I can't wrap my head around your point. Not at all.

I must be wrong, but I read your posts as asserting that "not training is safer than some training". That can't be right, you can't seriously argue that he'd have been better off buying a gun and then sticking it in a drawer until the window breaks at 2 AM, or that signing up for the training somehow precluded him from going to the range by himself.

Pennsylvania doesn't require training classes for PA LTCF's. So this must have been for Utah or Florida. Now, if those states required some sort of advanced Marine Corps triathlon run-jump-shoot course, and that course was getting people killed, then hey, I'd be right in your corner in objecting to this unnecessary risk.

But this guy killed himself drawing and shooting. Just standing there, drawing and shooting. Isn't that kind of a necessary part of gun handling? A firearm isn't an alarm system that you purchase and have installed. It's a tool, that has to be USED by you. He died while attempting to use a gun in the manner intended. That's hardly the fault of a prerequisite for a license. It's his fault, and possibly some bad instruction (I have no reason to think the RSO was at fault, but there aren't all that many players in this tragedy.)

At some point, the knee-jerk "blame the government" thing lacks credibility.

**knight0334** · March 12th, 2011, 05:45 PM

It's the dipshit who capped his own self's fault. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to operate any type of handgun. If he had the gun pointed towards himself while trying to articulate the safety then he just won a Darwin Award plain and simple.. Its not the range officer's fault, nor the instructor's, nor the state's - it is his own dumbass fault. You do not point a gun at yourself.

Its probably a good thing for the rest of us and society that he did his self in before he accidentally capped one of us innocent folks.