Question regarding shooting accuracy -- Is it the gun, the round, or the shooter?

[adoddere]

I have to give you guys the background for the question to make sense. I purchased a S&W M&P 9mm (full size) last November. I have been very pleased to date, having now shot 1400 rounds of various types/brands of ammo without a single failure or malfunction. As you might expect, over time and rounds, my accuracy has improved. I thought I was shooting pretty well with the M&P and want to shoot IDPA, beginning as soon as next month and have begun "gearing up" to do so.

Then, last month, I purchased a Kimber Ultra CDP II in .45 ACP. I had read that the 3" barrel would be great for CC, but that I shouldn't expect too much on the range at any distance.

Well, over the past 2 weeks I have been shooting both firearms at distances ranging from 20 to 60 feet. To my surprise, I am considerably more accurate with the 3" Kimber. With the M&P, I struggle to put the rounds in a 10" diameter at 60 feet. I am a novice shooter, and never thought that was anything more than my ability (or lack thereof). If it helps, I tend to miss low and left. However, with the Kimber, I consistently put most rounds (on average 7 of 10) in a 10" diameter from that distance.

My performance experience with these two firearms now has me wondering how much better I might shoot IDPA with a higher quality 9 mm. But I know it can't be as simple as pay more, shoot better. So I had a few questions for more experienced shooters.

Are .45's generally more accurate than 9 mm's, or is this a gun/shooter issue?
Are there IDPA permissible M&P modifications (sights, trigger, etc.) that you think might improve my performance with the M&P, or will this firearm be limited by things that can't be modified under IDPA (e.g., barrel)?

Thanks for any help.

[Snert]

Humm, heres my take, just because im off today and have not much to do...

1- its all 3. a good gun, with a ammo that works well with the gun and a confident shooter will do well..Thats why folks test alot of ammo to see what groups better with that particular firearm.
2- You can take a great shooter, And give him a sub grade firearm. I feel He will be able to adapt much quicker and make the same gun shoot better than the novice..This is due to experiance.

Now as for the Kimber Vs. the M&P...Your comparing apples to oranges here. One is a stock NON-tuned production line gun. The other is a enhanced gun from Kimber. But curious if you were to have a trigger action job done on the M&P what would happen with your groups. I dont know what the IDPA rules limit you with for stock class.

Snert..

[dgg9]

Are .45's generally more accurate than 9 mm's, or is this a gun/shooter issue?

It's not caliber. It's a trigger issue, which is both a gun and a shooter issue. When you start shooting, and for the first few years, trigger control is almost everything when it comes to accuracy. A short, crisp single action trigger, all else equal, will be much easier to shoot accurately with. You have to keep the sights aligned for much less hand movement. It's not easy or natural to hold the gun firmly, keeping 95% of your hands motionless, while also moving only the trigger finger and nothing else. All else equal, the less trigger travel, the easier it is to do that.

1911's have such triggers, and they also come in 9mm.

Note that over time, you'll continue to get better with the the M&P.

[JoeyBones]

It's not caliber. It's a trigger issue, which is both a gun and a shooter issue. When you start shooting, and for the first few years, trigger control is almost everything when it comes to accuracy. A short, crisp single action trigger, all else equal, will be much easier to shoot accurately with. You have to keep the sights aligned for much less hand movement. It's not easy or natural to hold the gun firmly, keeping 95% of your hands motionless, while also moving only the trigger finger and nothing else. All else equal, the less trigger travel, the easier it is to do that.

1911's have such triggers, and they also come in 9mm.

Note that over time, you'll continue to get better with the the M&P.

^^ Here is your answer ^^

Regards,

Bones

[adoddere]

Thanks guys. I wondered if it might have something to do with my mastery of the trigger, considering that when I miss with the M&P it's always left, and almost always low and left.

I've gotten a lot better with the M&P's long trigger pull and the feel of "staging" it, but I still have trouble when firing rapidly or at longer distances. The two most notable differences between shooting the two guns are the trigger and the sights. The Kimber trigger is smooth like butter. And for whatever reason (they are both 3-dot circles), my eye seems to find it easier to quickly find and focus the Kimber's front sight.

Given that the IDPA allows it, I'm thinking it might be worth it to look into some trigger work and sight replacement.

[dgg9]

Thanks guys. I wondered if it might have something to do with my mastery of the trigger, considering that when I miss with the M&P it's always left, and almost always low and left.

Indeed -- the classic symptoms. Some of that is flinching; some of that is from pulling the trigger not exactly back but shading it back and left.

A good instructor will help. Separate from that, I can recommend shooting dot targets (targets the size of a quarter, but you place them only a few yards away), and/or subtracting recoil from the equation via a .22. I don't suppose the M&P has a .22LR kit?

I've gotten a lot better with the M&P's long trigger pull and the feel of "staging" it, but I still have trouble when firing rapidly or at longer distances.

Mastering the trigger reset simultaneous with the recoil cycle of your gun is yet another skill. Hard to explain in words. Try Andy Stanford's "Surgical Speed Shooting" book (at Amazon) for a starting point.

[Neko456]

Swichting platform makes shooting difficult until you get use to both guns. I'd suggest shooting closer in then 20 yards at first a lot can happen at that distance. And practicing with each gun separately. Going from a light polymer DA/SA pistol to a solid steel SA 1911 gun can throw you. All those thing you mentioned can be a factor, but usually a veteran shooter can handle these differences by examining the POI on his targets and make adjustments.

I had a similar problem with 1917 Rem 06 @100 yards, with my ADL and Savage 110 I was shooting less then 1"MOA rounds touching (all the rifles were scoped no excuses). But my scoped 1917 I couldn't get them inside 2.5" I asked an older gentleman to try he took the same rifle and ammo he shot as close a group as I did with the other rifle with the better triggers. Later on I still couldn't do it but resovled that 2.5" is still good enough to hunt deer or boar in closer with a WWII rifle if wanted to. The Shooter does matters.

[rwb1500]

^^ Here is your answer ^^

Regards,

Bones

2x.

Get a 5 inch 1911, in 9mm, .45, or whatever tickles your fancy.

[Waldershrek]

It's not caliber. It's a trigger issue, which is both a gun and a shooter issue. When you start shooting, and for the first few years, trigger control is almost everything when it comes to accuracy. A short, crisp single action trigger, all else equal, will be much easier to shoot accurately with. You have to keep the sights aligned for much less hand movement. It's not easy or natural to hold the gun firmly, keeping 95% of your hands motionless, while also moving only the trigger finger and nothing else. All else equal, the less trigger travel, the easier it is to do that.

1911's have such triggers, and they also come in 9mm.

Note that over time, you'll continue to get better with the the M&P.

This is the truth. Hickok45 has some great videos on YouTube on this topic as well.

[Brick]

Thanks guys. I wondered if it might have something to do with my mastery of the trigger, considering that when I miss with the M&P it's always left, and almost always low and left.

Low and left (say about 7:00 o'clock) is a classic result of jerking the trigger.

When you get there look at this: http://bullseyepistol.com/training.htm

And read the AMU Pistol Marksmanship Manual here: http://bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm

You'll find this is very detailed, but pay special attention to the chapter about "Minimum Arc of Movement". And don't be concerned that this was written for the Bullseye competitor because basic marksmanship applies to all and every shooting discipline.