Legality Of Open Carry

[thestugots01]

First off, I know the search button works, but would like to have a discussion about this on a thread so I can clear some things up. I am a Police Officer and had a debate on Open Carry.

Officers were telling me the following:
- You must conceal your firearm when you have a concealed permit
- If police are called to the scene you MUST identify yourself and give the officer your ID or you will be arrested
- How do I know this person who is open carrying isn't a felon or doesn't have warrants

I explained to the officers how it is a LTCF and you would not even find the word concealed or permit on the license. We have absolutely no right to retreive ID from an individual who has done nothing wrong. Open carrying is legal and you do no need a LTCF to do it. I would like to see caselaw or any type of written statute that shows what Police can and can't do with citizens who open carry. I would like to educate my department. Thank You.

[CHEMICAL]

Tell them to read the REQUIRED MPOETC. It's updated since ..oh say....2009, and specifically addresses open carry.

http://www.lildobe.net/PAFOA_Docs/MP...pdate_2009.pdf

Question #3- What can police legally do when they observe a person engaging in
open carry?
Answer #3- In most cases, the police cannot engage the person in anything other
than a mere encounter. Unless the person engaged in lawful open carry is in
violation of a specific State or Federal firearm prohibition or is carrying in a
restricted area (For example: prohibitions contained in §6105, possession by a
minor §6110.1, possession on school property §912, possession in a court
facility §913, carrying in Philadelphia §6108, carrying in a vehicle, carrying
during a declared state of emergency §6107), the officer would not have specific
reasonable suspicion of criminal activity merely based on observing a person
engaged in open carry. Therefore, a stop and frisk or any other seizure would
not be legally justified.

[BimmerJon]

Where are you a police officer?

Why don't you know the answers to these questions?

Why haven't you taken your MPOETC training which covers this topic in great depth?

I would like to see caselaw or any type of written statute that shows what Police can and can't do with citizens who open carry. I would like to educate my department. Thank You.

No offense, I'm HAPPY you're reaching out to get answers, but at the same time, it is a little pathetic that you (and the other officers) need to come to an internet forum to "help solve a debate" about this... If you DON'T know how to treat citizens that are carrying firearms, hand in your gun and badge and work desk duty until you do. Sorry if that is harsh but you are an officer of the law and your ignorance can get someone law-abiding killed from your lack of basic and fundamental training topics.

Again, thanks for actually reaching out, but I'm having a hard time believing you're a cop... You are required to take the MPOETC training, why have you not?

[iMoses14]

Here's a PDF file. Download it and read it. I have a printed copy with me at ALL times cause I OC.

[thestugots01]

Where are you a police officer?

Why don't you know the answers to these questions?

Why haven't you taken your MPOETC training which covers this topic in great depth?

Where I am employed isn't the issue. Certain individuals do not pay attention to their MPOETC Updates. So I would like to show them in writing because they do not believe anything I am saying.

[General Geoff]

- How do I know this person who is open carrying isn't a felon or doesn't have warrants

The simple fact is you don't. In the United States, the justice system (law enforcement included) operates on the presumption of innocence. The carry of a firearm does not somehow shift this presumption to "guilty until proven innocent."

[thestugots01]

Again, thanks for actually reaching out, but I'm having a hard time believing you're a cop... You are required to take the MPOETC training, why have you not?

I was hired in 2010 so I didn't take the 2009 MPOETC updates. So don't be so quick tempered. I asked very specific questions and lets stick to the subject. Thanks iMoses!!

[gnbrotz]

Where I am employed isn't the issue. Certain individuals do not pay attention to their MPOETC Updates. So I would like to show them in writing because they do not believe anything I am saying.

How about asking them to show you the law(s) that support their claims.

*Hint - they won't find any

I don't have to prove what I'm doing is legal. If they police take issue, they must prove that my actions are/were illegal. I'm sure of my actions, or else I wouldn't act. Perhaps they should adopt the same tact.

[BimmerJon]

Officers were telling me the following:
- You must conceal your firearm when you have a concealed permit
NO, you don't have to conceal. One exception would be a state park. PA doesn't issue a concealed carry permit.

- If police are called to the scene you MUST identify yourself and give the officer your ID or you will be arrested
NO, a person is never under any obligation to ID themselves. Google "5th Amendment", further PA is not a Stop and ID state. A person never is required to show ID like a DL unless driving. Even that said, unless there is RAS of a crime, LEO have no basis to legally demand ID at all, even verbally.


- How do I know this person who is open carrying isn't a felon or doesn't have warrants
You Dont, and you Dont need to know

I explained to the officers how it is a LTCF and you would not even find the word concealed or permit on the license.
Correct

We have absolutely no right to retreive ID from an individual who has done nothing wrong.
Correct

Open carrying is legal and you do no need a LTCF to do it.
Correct, except in Phila

I would like to see caselaw or any type of written statute that shows what Police can and can't do with citizens who open carry. I would like to educate my department.
READ your MPOETC mandatory training which you should have already done

Mine in red

[BimmerJon]

I was hired in 2010 so I didn't take the 2009 MPOETC updates. So don't be so quick tempered. I asked very specific questions and lets stick to the subject. Thanks iMoses!!

Wouldn't you be required to catch up on previous updates? Just curious
Did all your buddies and the rest of the department all start in 2010 as well?
Sounds like the whole force just started

I'm happy to help, but I gotta be honest, it's like a US Airways pilot joining a pilot forum and asking which button makes the flaps go up or down cause a couple of your pilot buddies are trying to win a debate.. lol