Best way to do this?? NFA stuff.

[GunLawyer001]

Just to clarify - there is no real difference between forming a trust for guns (NFA) and a trust for anything else. Granted it wouldn't hurt if the lawyer was atleast a little familiar with gun laws - but in all reality it's not that big of a deal.

How long have you been a member of the PA bar?

Personally, I see a huge difference between a trust that holds your house and boat and some T-bills, and a trust that's the only thing between you and multiple felony counts of possession of NFA firearms that are not registered to you.

I like LLC's as NFA holding entities. Never has been an annual fee in PA, and the validity can't be questioned as long as your LLC is listed with the Commonwealth. A trust can always be challenged, because it's only as solid as the paper it's written on, and the government has more lawyers and more money than you do.

Most of the "experts" pushing trusts on the Internet are either people with no legal experience at all, or lawyers with less than 5 years membership in the bar. If there's an incident, and the local cops or the local ATF field office screws up, and they want to shift the blame to you, then expect them to feel around for a weak spot in your legal position. Heck, millionaires have the best lawyers, and when they die they often have their wills challenged in court, and sometimes those wills fail under a determined attack. So your $50 mail-order Trust Software (whose programmers never even heard of the NFA), or your "Good in all 50-states NFA firearm holding trust" just might fail under such an attack, as well. Often, the same lawyers who draft wills are the lawyers who draft trusts (it's the same department, really); are we to believe that wills can be defective but trusts are infallible?

[DVE]

Personally, I see a huge difference between a trust that holds your house and boat and some T-bills, and a trust that's the only thing between you and multiple felony counts of possession of NFA firearms that are not registered to you.

Could you elaborate on why? Of course if we are going to split hairs the items would not technically belong to you - but to the trust. But that is the whole point of a trust is for one to legally operate the specified NFA items - is it not?

I like LLC's as NFA holding entities. Never has been an annual fee in PA, and the validity can't be questioned as long as your LLC is listed with the Commonwealth.

I know you have been a big advocate of LLC's, but both LLC's and Trusts both have their own Pros and Cons - do they not? With LLC's potentially moving out of state can be an issue, but also you have to look into tax returns and EIN's when you go to sell an item. In addition, he's looking multi-generational by including his sons.

As you said yourself.. "My clients aren't really looking for multi-generational probate avoidance mechanisms"

So therefore an LLC would further complicate his situation if he dies or becomes incapacitated.

..the government has more lawyers and more money than you do.

Can you provide a few case-studies and/or legal citations/rulings of government action against personal NFA trust in PA?

your "Good in all 50-states NFA firearm holding trust" just might fail

Might being the keyword. There is no precedent that shows any cause for concern. As seen by the tens of thousands currently using NFA trusts to possess their property - I don't see any reason to be concerned. This is beside the fact that if new legislation is passed - trusts can simply be revised in order to stay compliant.

EDIT: For Clarification.

[GunLawyer001]

Could you elaborate on why? Of course if we are going to split hairs the items would not technically belong to you - but to the trust. But that is the whole point of a trust is for one to legally operate the specified NFA items - is it not?


I know you have been a big advocate of LLC's, but both LLC's and Trusts both have their own Pros and Cons - do they not? With LLC's potentially moving out of state can be an issue, but also you have to look into tax returns and EIN's when you go to sell an item. In addition, he's looking multi-generational by including his sons.

As you said yourself.. "My clients aren't really looking for multi-generational probate avoidance mechanisms"

So therefore an LLC would further complicate his situation if he dies or becomes incapacitated.


Can you provide a few case-studies and legal rulings of government action against personal NFA trust in PA?


Might being the keyword. There is no precedent that shows any cause for concern. As seen by the tens of thousands currently using NFA trusts to possess their property - I don't see any reason to be concerned. This is beside the fact that if new legislation is passed - trusts can simply be revised in order to stay compliant.

Again: "How long have you been a member of the PA bar?"

[DVE]

Again: "How long have you been a member of the PA bar?"

For understandable reasons: I'm going to side-step that question as I'd prefer not to comment on my current personal qualifications. [Discussed via PM]

If you on the other hand, could refer to the questions I previously raised (especially citing legal precedents against NFA trusts particularly in the Commonwealth) I'd appreciate it.

I dont trust a multi use FITS all electronic law making documents. Unfortunately every situation is unique in its own way. And god forbid Something happens that would involve the LAW/FEDS/Police. I dont want to trust a computer program that you forget to click one box, sends you to the gray bar no tell motel for 10 years.

I have to read the links you provided later today after the gunshow..time to go find some new tenants for the safe.

Snert - I hope the gunshow went well - post pictures if you found any new additions to the collection.

Take a few minutes, whenever you get a chance, and review those links. You can see the software/online programs are very simple to follow correctly, as they all guide you step-by-step. And once completed, if for whatever reason you still did not have 100% confidence in the Trust, at that point I'd advocate having it reviewed by a Trust/Will lawyer.

EDIT: For Clarification.

[GunLawyer001]

For understandable reasons: I'm going to side-step that question as I'd prefer not to comment on my current personal qualifications.

If you on the other hand, could refer to the questions I previously raised (especially citing legal precedents against NFA trusts particularly in the Commonwealth) I'd appreciate it.

. . .

BZZZT. Not the way it works.

ETA: I don't think that the NFA trust Armageddon has begun yet, the flood of self-cobbled NFA trusts is just a few years old. Less time than it took for ATF to "discover" that a forward pistol grip on a TEC-9 was somehow illegal, or that Streetsweepers were DD's all along, and about as long as it usually takes for ATF to reverse itself and outlaw a product that they previously determined was legal.

It doesn't take a genius to warn you about a bridge after the cars have fallen into the river. A smart consigliere will tell you that the bridge is shaky before the footings collapse and the roadway drops out from under the traffic.

[acosenza2]

BZZZT. Not the way it works.

ETA: I don't think that the NFA trust Armageddon has begun yet, the flood of self-cobbled NFA trusts is just a few years old. Less time than it took for ATF to "discover" that a forward pistol grip on a TEC-9 was somehow illegal, or that Streetsweepers were DD's all along, and about as long as it usually takes for ATF to reverse itself and outlaw a product that they previously determined was legal.

It doesn't take a genius to warn you about a bridge after the cars have fallen into the river. A smart consigliere will tell you that the bridge is shaky before the footings collapse and the roadway drops out from under the traffic.

God forbid that I should ever need a lawyer for a criminal proceeding I will be calling you. Although this LLC for NFA items is interesting and haven't heard it before.

As a side note: did you know that a consigliere is also a position in the Mafia?
The godfather's "counsel" and representation at official meetings

[GunLawyer001]

. . .
As a side note: did you know that a consigliere is also a position in the Mafia?
. . .

What do you mean, "also"?

"PAFOA - Men of respect since 2006"

[acosenza2]

What do you mean, "also"?

"PAFOA - Men of respect since 2006"

Oh, my apologies to you and the Don.

[GunLawyer001]

Oh, my apologies to you and the Don.

It's OK. Leave the car. Take the cannoli. And avoid the toll booth.

[DVE]

I don't think that the NFA trust Armageddon has begun yet, the flood of self-cobbled NFA trusts is just a few years old.

The NFA Trust Armageddon?
That kind of fear-mongering is no different than those who say the ATF are going to eventually ban all guns. In addition, if we've resorted to speculation, during this Armageddon why would the ATF not go after NFA corporations and LLC's as well?
And again, using your own words, "My clients aren't really looking for multi-generational probate avoidance mechanisms" So in my opinion, it's not in Snert's best interest to form a corporation/LLC due to his sons.

Snert - I was simply trying to offer you alternative options in reference to your NFA collection. Also did you end up finding anything at the gunshow?