38 Special Vs 9mm Luger ??

[PhillyGunslinger]

Wait, what? I thought that the mass of the slide absorbed the recoil?

ETA: Let me rephrase that. The mass of the slide should lower the perceived recoil by lengthening the time in which the energy is transferred to the hand.

Yea that's right ! The slide cycling actually tames recoil. It's the reason why autos don't seem to kick as much as revolvers.

[NuclearSociety]

Tell that to James Bond.

Yes , haha I am a fan of small caliber as was my friend mr bond, but he was also trained by the British Secret Service and worked for MI6.

[rwb1500]

Please educate me, what's the term "Chicago load" mean?

Also called the FBI load, it's a 158 gr lead semi wadcutter hollow point.

[PhillyGunslinger]

If you would like to read an analysis of the Marshall-Sanow reports here is one: http://www.firearmstactical.com/mars...l-analysis.htm


As to the .38 compared to the 9mm, I doubt that either is optimal, but neither is pitiful. I often carry Buffalo Bore .38+P loads, these are a very soft 158 gr lead hollow point at over 1000 fps. I believe this is as capable of a one shot stop as any 9mm. However, were I shooting Winchester white box I'd rather have the 9mm than the remarkably anemic .38 loads. 9mm has always been a high pressure load, even a hundred year old Luger will handle hot loads, 9s are typically pretty high pressure loads.

One of the advantages of the .38 in a revolver is that they can be loaded down for practice and the pistol will still function. Lead bullets as slow as 700 fps are used by the bushel for target and plinking. There loads will not prove terribly effective in a gun fight, although I'd prefer not to prove this with my skin. 9mms on the other hand have to cycle the slide so are not generally loaded with extremely light loads. So it is not surprising to find the weakest 9mm is stouter than the weakest .38; big deal if you carry a .38 load it with good ammo and you have at least the equivalent of the 9MM.

Any ammo Buffalo Bore or Double Tap makes is awesome. Yes a 158 gr bullet at 1000 fps is going to hit hard. Buffalo Bore also makes 9mm and so does double tap. {At least Double Tap does, not sure about BB}
This would mean that their 9mm loads are still gonna come out on top of the 38 Special loads. Double Taps 147 gr 9mm +P load is at 1125 fps and 410 ft-lbs. The 124 gr +P is at 1310 fps and 473 ft-lbs ! That's regular 40 S&W ammo performance ! When you get into these two ammo companies everything is Hot !
Most folks can't even find this ammo but on the internet ! That's why I was trying to stick to the regular brands, Federal, Remington, Winchester, ect.
I know it all comes down to penetration and bullet design but these chrts do give you a rough idea of the bullets speed and ft-lb {Torque} energy.
Evrything has to be taken into consideration. Black Talon bullets are nasty and deadly but at 500 fps they are going to be less potent. With that in mind, the ammo charts are not just all hype or null and void. There is some credibility to that thought ! Take that same bullet and drive it at 1400 fps and it's a very potent man stopper.

[God's Country]

All handgun rounds are very poor man-stoppers. They are all pretty much equal, and rely on either a CNS hit, or traumatic blood loss to stop an attacker.

That being said, the smallest anybody should carry is 9mm.

Holy hell it's JustinM!

Would have bet this was an old thread

[Pizza Bob]

Wait, what? I thought that the mass of the slide absorbed the recoil?

ETA: Let me rephrase that. The mass of the slide should lower the perceived recoil by lengthening the time in which the energy is transferred to the hand.

Not sure that I can defend my original statement, Lord knows I'm no whiz at physics, but here's what I think.

You'll note that I used the term "felt recoil" in my response - not actual. We know that with conservation of energy the recoil energy of the slide cannot be greater than that generated by bullet. However, the transferrance would be different. The recoil impulse from the bullet firing is enough to move a much heavier slide through the reverse travel of it's cycle. What we have is the bullet energy, created by low mass and high velocity, transferring to the slide which becomes high mass, low velocity (think of the age old argument of 9mm - small & fast - vs. .45 ACP - large & slow). Now we have increased mass, moving rearward behind the pivot point created by the grip increasing the "felt" recoil. Not only that, but the recoil energy that propelled the slide rearward is now stored in the recoil spring, slamming the relatively high mass slide forward again - creating yet another recoil impulse forward.

I may be way off base on my assumptions, but just from actual use of a 1911 and a model 625, the perceived recoil, for me, is much less with a revolver than with a semi-auto and all its reciprocating pieces.

OK, give me a second to get the popcorn and you physics whizzes can have at me.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

[PhillyGunslinger]

Then when a semi-auto is fired you feel the recoil when the slide goes back but by the slide coming foward it's actually helping you bring the muzzle back down. A revolver when fired the recoil brings the muzzle up but there's no slide to help bring it back down so your feeling all the flip/recoil. Just my opinion. Everyone is going to think differently with this. On the other hand a 38 special out of a K frame 4 inch barrel has very little recoil, a 9mm has a bit more recoil, but a 357 Mag has more than both. It depends on caliber and gun used. A K-38 Masterpiece is going to kick less than a J-Frame 38.
The model 27 N frame with 38 Specials loaded in it is a joke to fire, hardly no recoil.
It almost feels like a 32 ! Put 357's in the same gun and it all changes but it still feels like less recoil than say the K-38 Masterpiece.

I had a Model 27 with a 6 inch barrel by the way and when I fired 38 Specials out of it you could hardly feel it, the gun just about moved ! Even with full house 357's it wasn't as intimidating as the same out of a model 66. That's one nice 357 !

[JustinM]

Holy hell it's JustinM!

Would have bet this was an old thread

I pop in every now and then. :-)

[soberbyker]

I pop in every now and then. :-)

And that's just to make sure the MarcS quote is never forgotten

although I think you are one in the same

[JustinM]

And that's just to make sure the MarcS quote is never forgotten

although I think you are one in the same

Nope. He's one of my best friends, though.