Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1111
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by MDJschool View Post
    It's not that guy who shits on OC while being a gun rights lawyer, is it? (Mirowitz?)



    If those two simple and easy to remember provisions, representing the supreme law of the land, are not a good place to start for those who have not read the constitutions, and our public officials including police officers who take oaths to the constitutions, then we might as well quit posting on PAFOA and throw down our arms. Or maybe it's that we should take up arms. Something.
    I wish they had meaning, I really do. But the sad truth is they don't. Look how many gun restrictions exist. The courts don't care, police officers don't care, and most subjects, err citizens, don't care either.

    I didn't mean to side rail the main purpose of this thread. I just find it rather naive (with the current state of gun laws) to believe that quoting the PA constitution will automatically convince people the government is wrong (especially when they think the government is in the right).
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be construed as legal advice.

  2. #1112
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by MDJschool View Post
    It's not that guy who shits on OC while being a gun rights lawyer, is it? (Mirowitz?)
    As I posted he was refered to a very prominent firm in Center City Philadelphia.

    Mirowitz is a single attorney practice in NE Philly.

  3. #1113
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    With what has already happened, there should be no need whatsoever for this. Philly has time, and time again shown that they have no respect for laws, rules, or the people they serve. Philly at one point in time, was a name synonymous with freedom. A location, where dreams of being free where spouted by every man, woman, and child. It was the cradle of our country, and the foundations that it was built upon.

    What these thugs are doing, has crossed all lines. It is one thing to give someone a hard time, or to flex your muscles when the ladies walk by. For what started this, it was already unacceptable. They took things too far, after many people calmly, rationally, and correctly tried to help them in enforcing correct laws.

    Now with this? On what charges. For what reason? Why is it, that no one can find his name listed? Here is my fear. We are going to read in the paper, in a few days, that Mark was found dead, with a pocket full of crack, and a note saying how much he hated cops who died in the line of fire.

    Liberty, freedom, these words once meant something to the people of this country. More so in the city of "brotherly love". Gentlemen, I say it is time to teach Philly some humility, and make sure that anyone walking down the road with a GD punt gun isn't so much as looked at.

    Has anyone thought about maybe buttons? T shirts? Hats? Something to sell to raise more money. I am already donating funds on payday. However, I would also chip in a few bucks for getting something to help get the word out. With all the people following this thread, from multiple boards, and different locations. I am sure some of them would want a "free mark" hat, or something of the like.
    I'm so fast, I can bump fire a bolt action.

  4. #1114
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    I wish I could take part in this philly uprising! this may end up being one of those things our grand children learn about in history class!
    USMC 2D ANGLICO 0861 FORWARD OBSERVER OEF 10.2 NOV'10-JUNE'11

  5. #1115
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless View Post
    No, it is neither understandable nor reasonable and the ignorance of that law is not excusable.

    The gun in question was carried securely holstered and ALL Pennsylvania police officers have received the information, that carrying a firearm in that manner is perfectly legal, in their update training in 2009. There was no immediate threat. There was no illegal activity. The police officer demonstrated through his ignorance that he is mentally unfit for the job, because he either doesn't take training serious enough or has significant memory loss issues.


    Jan
    I am not at all making excuses or claiming the cop's actions are excusable due to ignorance, only that they were caused by ignorance, and proceeding from his flawed initial premise, what he did after that is what I would expect any rational self preserving individual to do. I'm not saying it was ultimately right, I'm pointing out that his interpretation of the scenario was wrong (that something dangerous or illegal was happening), however his actions given that flawed premise were logical in their own right.

    Honestly I didn't realize until just a moment ago that the PPD are pursuing him as a criminal now, in response to this event. To me, the ignorance of a handful of street cops regarding laws around something as uncommon in Philly as OC is infinitesimal compared to the massive ignorance of the PPD doing this warrant thing after the fact...

    Again, arguing from a practical standpoint, whatever technicality (possibly the audio recording?) they could bring a criminal case against the OC guy upon, they've got to understand that the digital recording is already out in public and copied hundreds of times, that the authenticity of such recordings is trivial to prove using modern signal analysis techniques (bicoherence analysis), and that such a case will garner them an incalculable amount of negative publicity for whatever small philosophical gain they can get for enforcing a minor wiretapping law.

    Though regarding idealistic views on rights, if this is a wiretapping related infraction, are they not bound by law to pursue such a charge to the fullest extent even if it causes them a net negative impact? I'm sorry, that was admittedly snarky...

    Previously I was considering that maybe the OC guy should let it go but the PPD would certainly be insane not to let their end go too.
    Last edited by Don; April 20th, 2011 at 07:12 PM.

  6. #1116
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    I am not at all making excuses or claiming the cop's actions are excusable due to ignorance, only that they were caused by ignorance, and proceeding from his flawed initial premise, what he did after that is what I would expect any rational self preserving individual to do. I'm not saying it was ultimately right, I'm pointing out that his interpretation of the scenario was wrong (that something dangerous or illegal was happening), however his actions given that flawed premise were logical in their own right.

    Honestly I didn't realize until just a moment ago that the PPD are pursuing him as a criminal now, in response to this event. To me, the ignorance of a handful of street cops regarding laws around something as uncommon in Philly as OC is infinitesimal compared to the massive ignorance of the PPD doing this warrant thing after the fact...

    Again, arguing from a practical standpoint, whatever technicality (possibly the audio recording?) they could bring a criminal case against the OC guy upon, they've got to understand that the digital recording is already out in public and copied hundreds of times, that the authenticity of such recordings is trivial to prove using modern signal analysis techniques (bicoherence analysis), and that such a case will garner them an incalculable amount of negative publicity for whatever small philosophical gain they can get for enforcing a minor wiretapping law.

    Though regarding idealistic views on rights, if this is a wiretapping related infraction, are they not bound by law to pursue such a charge to the fullest extent even if it causes them a net negative impact? I'm sorry, that was admittedly snarky...

    Previously I was considering that maybe the OC guy should let it go but the PPD would certainly be insane not to let their end go too.
    While the law is rather ambiguous, it's not terribly difficult to find case law that says that audio recording public officials acting in their official capacity is not illegal, as they have no expectation of privacy. Though admittedly others will find case law that shows it isn't quite clear cut.

    Regardless of what the law says, I wouldn't mind case law that makes it 100% legal, no ifs ands or butts, to audio and video record cops while they are on duty. How else are they going to be held responsible?
    Last edited by zackattack784; April 20th, 2011 at 07:26 PM.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be construed as legal advice.

  7. #1117
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    Again, arguing from a practical standpoint, whatever technicality (possibly the audio recording?) they could bring a criminal case against the OC guy upon, they've got to understand that the digital recording is already out in public and copied hundreds of times, that the authenticity of such recordings is trivial to prove using modern signal analysis techniques (bicoherence analysis), and that such a case will garner them an incalculable amount of negative publicity for whatever small philosophical gain they can get for enforcing a minor wiretapping law.
    The gain from enforcing a 'minor wiretapping law' is actually major:
    1) "Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, a person is guilty of a felony of the third degree if he: (1) intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept any wire, electronic or oral communication;" 18 Pa.C.S. 5703. That's a prohibitor to the possession/ownership of firearms that rightfully deters people recording police for the purposes of justice.
    2) The cost of the defending in frivilous wiretap act charge proceedings will deter both OCers from carrying because they cannot collect evidence and people who want legitimate police conduct from capturing what they need to prevent purjury and falsified charges.
    3) "Except as provided in paragraph (2), no person shall disclose the contents of any wire, electronic or oral communication, or evidence derived therefrom, in any proceeding in any court, board or agency of this Commonwealth." 18 Pa.C.S. 5721.1(a)(1). The Commonwealth gains an advantage, whether that is legal or 'real world', by having judges find in criminal proceedings that a recording was gained in defiance of Pennsylvania's WIRETAPPING AND ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE Control Act. Such a finding will probably sway a judge in a civil rights action toward the inadmissibility of the evidence.

  8. #1118
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    Sorry but can anyone remember if Viper was actually convicted of previous unrelated charges (the drunk and disorderly charge and I think there was something else...) or just arrested and not convicted? My google-fu is failing me and i can't recall what he said.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

  9. #1119
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by MDJschool View Post
    The gain from enforcing a 'minor wiretapping law' is actually major:
    1) "Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, a person is guilty of a felony of the third degree if he: (1) intentionally intercepts, endeavors to intercept, or procures any other person to intercept or endeavor to intercept any wire, electronic or oral communication;" 18 Pa.C.S. 5703. That's a prohibitor to the possession/ownership of firearms that rightfully deters people recording police for the purposes of justice.
    2) The cost of the defending in frivilous wiretap act charge proceedings will deter both OCers from carrying because they cannot collect evidence and people who want legitimate police conduct from capturing what they need to prevent purjury and falsified charges.
    3) "Except as provided in paragraph (2), no person shall disclose the contents of any wire, electronic or oral communication, or evidence derived therefrom, in any proceeding in any court, board or agency of this Commonwealth." 18 Pa.C.S. 5721.1(a)(1). The Commonwealth gains an advantage, whether that is legal or 'real world', by having judges find in criminal proceedings that a recording was gained in defiance of Pennsylvania's WIRETAPPING AND ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE Control Act. Such a finding will probably sway a judge in a civil rights action toward the inadmissibility of the evidence.
    A certain non-profit organization has taken interest in this case and this being added to the mix will only further their interest.

  10. #1120
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    Default Re: Arrested by the Philadelphia Police for Open Carry

    Quote Originally Posted by exceltoexcel View Post
    He and I already talked.. He doesn't know what the charges are and HELL YES I'm going to philly even if its me and me alone.. Let them hit someone that has the funds to sue the living shit out of them..
    I wouldn't let you go alone. they might try to lock you up too! need someone there recording the encounter!

    Quote Originally Posted by BimmerJon View Post
    Wow

    A lot of "people" sure are watching this thread.

    They should be ashamed of themselves.

    When are we all meeting in Philly?
    we'll put together soon..like in the next week or 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by t1m0thy View Post
    A certain non-profit organization has taken interest in this case and this being added to the mix will only further their interest.
    can you name the non-profit organization?
    Peace, Prosperity, and Liberty

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