Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    t1m0thy is hitting the ground hard!

    link-
    http://www.lockhaven.com/page/conten....html?nav=5009

    Is there any other state agency less responsive to the concerns of its constituents than the Pennsylvania Game Commission?

    For attendees at Thursday's meeting of the Clinton County commissioners, the answer to that question was a nearly universal and unequivocal "no."

    Local residents joined the commissioners in decrying ongoing policies they say have damaged the state's hunting quality, specifically when it comes to the white-tailed deer.

    The conversation was sparked by Timothy L. Havener, local president of a group called Firearms Owners Against Crime, who has been at odds with some local governments concerning his support of the right to bear arms and his opposition to local restrictions on weaponry.

    However, this is a big hunting area, and Commissioners Tom Bossert, Adam Coleman and Joel Long are among those who count themselves friends of the hunting tradition.

    The commissioners say hunters are paying more in license fees each year, but are seeing fewer and deer "because of deliberately misleading and deceptive Game Commission policies that call for management of wildlife while actually promoting lumbering interests over hunters."

    The criticism also arrives on the heels of a recent Pennsylvania Commonwealth Court ruling dismissing the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania's legal challenge to the state Game Commission's deer management program

    Senior Judge Barry Feudale's summary judgment against The Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania was made public Wednesday.

    In his opinion, Feudale said the group offered no evidence that the commission's management of the state's deer herd is based on fraud or any abuse of its discretion. He said its arguments reflect "merely a disagreement" with the commission's philosophy.

    The group, a longtime critic of the PGC, claimed agency's policies are based on inadequate data and allow overhunting of does that will hurt deer-hunting opportunities in the long run.

    Coleman, an avid hunter, has a different story.

    "We were driving ... and saw a herd of five deer and we stopped for 15 minutes because you never see five deer in one place in Clinton County anymore," he charged.

    Coleman said studies based upon the more populated areas of the state might show deer in abundance, but an infrared scan of actual numbers in central Pennsylvania will show a different story, a dwindling of the herd that's hurting hunting, tradition, tourism and the forest itself.

    Havener pointed to a study that counters the PGC's claims, one that was conducted by wildlife biologist John Eveland.

    The Game Commission, in 2000, began a deer-reduction campaign that has collapsed the herd in many parts of the state "with no intention of returning the deer population to a respectably huntable status," Eveland concludes. "The PGC chose to unilaterally decimate the dominant herbivore from the Commonwealth's natural ecosystem and to destroy one of the nation's top deer hunting programs - setting in motion great and increasing impacts to Pennsylvania's hunting tradition and socioeconomy."

    "I'm 100 percent with you on this," Coleman told Havener. "It's pretty clear to me that somebody doesn't want any deer in Pennsylvania."

    Bossert, also a long-time hunter, said he believes the Game Commission should be stripped of all authority and its duties should be turned over to the state Legislature for the creation of a "more responsive" organization.

    Long said he was not a hunter, but he believes in wildlife management and in balancing varied interests within the environment. He said he does not believe PGC is living up to its mission.
    Peace, Prosperity, and Liberty

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    I would not be suprised, if one of the background reasons for managing away a deer population, was to get rid of the perceived need for firearms, as "hunting is all you need a gun for...".

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Azzy View Post
    I would not be suprised, if one of the background reasons for managing away a deer population, was to get rid of the perceived need for firearms, as "hunting is all you need a gun for...".
    to be honest, I had similar feelings as well.
    Peace, Prosperity, and Liberty

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    your kidding right, this is full of fail...

    The PGC hasnt had a license increase for 13 years.

    Everland did not work for the PGC and never wrote a management plan for them.

    The PGC is on a hundred year rotation for timber. 1% of the mature forested land is a harvest goal yearly. The PGC has never gone over that, in fact most years they fall short of the goal due to enviromental factors.
    Last edited by R.W.J; February 12th, 2011 at 01:32 PM.
    Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion, without the discomfort of thought.

    John F Kennedy.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    Quote Originally Posted by WCO,R.W.J View Post
    your kidding right, this is full of fail...

    The PGC hasnt had a license increase for 13 years.

    Everland did not work for the PGC and never wrote a management plan for them.

    The PGC is on a hundred year rotation for timber. 1% of the mature forested land is a harvest goal yearly. The PGC has never gone over that, in fact most years they fall short of the goal due to enviromental factors.
    Why would anyone be kidding. My State Rep Hanna has watch the Eveland videos and heard his presentation. I have watched the videos. He brings up alot of good points that I have not seen answered. The timber issue is mostly about DCNR land.
    The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    Everlands basic claim of what he has done is an untruth. That should call into question what his motives are and where he came from and way was he so silent for so long.
    Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion, without the discomfort of thought.

    John F Kennedy.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    Quote Originally Posted by WCO,R.W.J View Post
    your kidding right, this is full of fail...

    The PGC hasnt had a license increase for 13 years.

    Everland did not work for the PGC and never wrote a management plan for them.

    The PGC is on a hundred year rotation for timber. 1% of the mature forested land is a harvest goal yearly. The PGC has never gone over that, in fact most years they fall short of the goal due to enviromental factors.
    They have not had a license increase for 13 years, but they have proposed license hike many times and have got shot down. They say they need money but have lived off of the money generated for these 13 years. They are still around it's amazing how they said they need a license increase of over $10 per adult license plus other hikes like adding two more dollars on the archery license. I have the January Game News here are the numbers posted in this issue.

    Total Expenditures @ Commitments= 74,148,765
    Total Revenues .............................-67,197,757
    .................................................. ...6,951,008

    So at the $10 per adult lic.=6,000,000
    $2 archery bump=======..500,000


    By taking just two revenues that the PGC wanted to raise prices we can see that they would have gotten closer to balancing there current budget. But legislators would not let them have there license fee hikes. Good for them how about cutting spending instead of raising ticket prices as they say.

    Here are some areas the budget could have been cut.



    They paid

    Game Land construction and maintenance= 7,306,202
    State Wildlife Grants============== 2,629,591
    Game Farm Operations============= 3,310,796
    Conservation Reserve Enhancement Program==365,388
    General Law Enforcement ============8,427,177
    Land Management Administration =======7,651,223


    All of those programs ,grants,operations,and so on =29,690,377 if there wasn't $7,000,000 to save in all this BS I'll eat my hat. This doesn't include all the other BS money's that could have been saved. Don't brag about no license increase in 13 years you don't need it. Just cut back and live amongst your means. Just because the PGC "needs" money doesn't mean we just approve license fee's and let them live high on the hog. A company that generates $67,197,757 and says we need more to balance the budget just makes me sick.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    Dear WCO,R.W.J,

    I am continually surprised at the depths some will go to destroy the messenger and fail to deal with the message. As you will see 'untruths' are a two edged sword.

    I suggest you read the attachments and then go to Penn State Main campus and see exactly what is John Eveland's record of accomplishments and his credits. Since you list your profession as a WCO and imply that this is your professional opinion I would like to know where, exactly, you get your information?

    Quote Originally Posted by WCO,R.W.J View Post
    Everlands basic claim of what he has done is an untruth. That should call into question what his motives are and where he came from and way was he so silent for so long.
    Furthermore, perhaps you can explain why the deer harvests have fallen for the last six years or why there wasn't any science behind the Gary Alt program. Before you call me a liar I suggest you talk with your superiors about my visit to the PGC headquarters in 2002 where I was told exactly that AND Gary Alt never provided the information he promised me in front of hundreds of hunters at several different presentations he made on the current deer plan.

    Oh, and while you are at it you can also explain why the DCNR FLIR studies came back with such low counts of deer per square mile. Members of the legislature informed me that they showed 5-10 the first time and 0-5 the second time. So how about we publish these results?!

    I respectfully suggest it is time you remember exactly 'who' you work for and it certainly isn't the Audubon Society 'or' the Heinz Foundation 'or' the timbering interests.

    I invite everyone to go to our website - www.acsl-pa.org - and check out the documents posted there. Further, I also want to state emphatically that we have EVERY document to back up what is said there and much, much more.

    PS Perhaps you can explain to the posters in this thread exactly why the PGC wanted 'civil asset forfeiture' (just like in drug cases) using the concept of 'right of replevin' in these cases and 'exactly' what that means?!

    Perhaps we can agree to stick to the science, or lack thereof, of the deer management issue.

    Respectfully,
    Kim Stolfer
    Legislative Committee Chairman
    Allegheny County Sportsmen's League
    Chairman
    Firearms Owners Against Crime
    Eveland-FlawedScience-PGC_Approach.pdf

    Eveland-Credentials-11-01-01.pdf

    Levengood-DeerHarvestChart-10Years.pdf

    DCNR-Quotations-GreenCert-DeerReduction.pdf

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Activist View Post
    Dear WCO,R.W.J,

    I am continually surprised at the depths some will go to destroy the messenger and fail to deal with the message. As you will see 'untruths' are a two edged sword.

    I suggest you read the attachments and then go to Penn State Main campus and see exactly what is John Eveland's record of accomplishments and his credits. Since you list your profession as a WCO and imply that this is your professional opinion I would like to know where, exactly, you get your information?



    Furthermore, perhaps you can explain why the deer harvests have fallen for the last six years or why there wasn't any science behind the Gary Alt program. Before you call me a liar I suggest you talk with your superiors about my visit to the PGC headquarters in 2002 where I was told exactly that AND Gary Alt never provided the information he promised me in front of hundreds of hunters at several different presentations he made on the current deer plan.

    Oh, and while you are at it you can also explain why the DCNR FLIR studies came back with such low counts of deer per square mile. Members of the legislature informed me that they showed 5-10 the first time and 0-5 the second time. So how about we publish these results?!

    I respectfully suggest it is time you remember exactly 'who' you work for and it certainly isn't the Audubon Society 'or' the Heinz Foundation 'or' the timbering interests.

    I invite everyone to go to our website - www.acsl-pa.org - and check out the documents posted there. Further, I also want to state emphatically that we have EVERY document to back up what is said there and much, much more.

    PS Perhaps you can explain to the posters in this thread exactly why the PGC wanted 'civil asset forfeiture' (just like in drug cases) using the concept of 'right of replevin' in these cases and 'exactly' what that means?!

    Perhaps we can agree to stick to the science, or lack thereof, of the deer management issue.

    Respectfully,
    Kim Stolfer
    Legislative Committee Chairman
    Allegheny County Sportsmen's League
    Chairman
    Firearms Owners Against Crime
    Eveland-FlawedScience-PGC_Approach.pdf

    Eveland-Credentials-11-01-01.pdf

    Levengood-DeerHarvestChart-10Years.pdf

    DCNR-Quotations-GreenCert-DeerReduction.pdf
    Great post as usual Kim. Rep sent.
    The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Commissioners, others, decry Game Commission deer policies

    Quote Originally Posted by Activist View Post
    Dear WCO,R.W.J,

    I am continually surprised at the depths some will go to destroy the messenger and fail to deal with the message. As you will see 'untruths' are a two edged sword.

    I suggest you read the attachments and then go to Penn State Main campus and see exactly what is John Eveland's record of accomplishments and his credits. Since you list your profession as a WCO and imply that this is your professional opinion I would like to know where, exactly, you get your information?



    Furthermore, perhaps you can explain why the deer harvests have fallen for the last six years or why there wasn't any science behind the Gary Alt program. Before you call me a liar I suggest you talk with your superiors about my visit to the PGC headquarters in 2002 where I was told exactly that AND Gary Alt never provided the information he promised me in front of hundreds of hunters at several different presentations he made on the current deer plan.

    Oh, and while you are at it you can also explain why the DCNR FLIR studies came back with such low counts of deer per square mile. Members of the legislature informed me that they showed 5-10 the first time and 0-5 the second time. So how about we publish these results?!

    I respectfully suggest it is time you remember exactly 'who' you work for and it certainly isn't the Audubon Society 'or' the Heinz Foundation 'or' the timbering interests.

    I invite everyone to go to our website - www.acsl-pa.org - and check out the documents posted there. Further, I also want to state emphatically that we have EVERY document to back up what is said there and much, much more.

    PS Perhaps you can explain to the posters in this thread exactly why the PGC wanted 'civil asset forfeiture' (just like in drug cases) using the concept of 'right of replevin' in these cases and 'exactly' what that means?!

    Perhaps we can agree to stick to the science, or lack thereof, of the deer management issue.

    Respectfully,
    Kim Stolfer
    Legislative Committee Chairman
    Allegheny County Sportsmen's League
    Chairman
    Firearms Owners Against Crime
    Eveland-FlawedScience-PGC_Approach.pdf

    Eveland-Credentials-11-01-01.pdf

    Levengood-DeerHarvestChart-10Years.pdf

    DCNR-Quotations-GreenCert-DeerReduction.pdf
    Kim,

    I havent nor would call you a liar. Deer management is a passionate issue that dated back to the 1900's.

    As far as your questions about deer managemant, It is above my paygrade and education. I Suggest you talk to wildlife biologist.

    I do know however that John Everland never wrote a deer management or bear management plan for the PGC.

    My posting here are not my proffessional opinion, in fact I prefer to just posting the law. I post on my off duty time only.
    Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion, without the discomfort of thought.

    John F Kennedy.

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