why oh why

**Bender** · February 5th, 2011, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Fossil4Life

I see that you live in Lancaster county. Try checking out GunDealer Online off Route 30 in Lancaster. They charge $25 bucks and the owner, as well as the staff, are all terrific.

i would check that out but the person getting the handgun lives a good ways away and lanc would be like a 45 min drive , hell its a 25-30 min drive for me

**Noah_Zark** · February 5th, 2011, 05:00 PM

To answer the OP's question from the point of view of a dealer, the reason transfers are so high is because that's the value the shop owner puts on his time, or the person's time who does his bookwork.

Let's say you meet a fellow member at a shop for a handgun transfer, and the transfer is $50. Pretty steep, and let's see what the dealer does for that Grant:

The dealer or an employee mostly stands there while the buyer fills out his info in a 4473 and the PSP Handgun Record of Sale form. The dealer or employee also has to complete pages 2 and 3 of the 4473, and his section of the PSP Handgun form. Then there's the call to PICS, for which he is charged $2. If it goes smoothly, there's about 15-20 mins in it. If an operator comes on, then add 5 mins at least. So the transfer could take as much as 30 mins of the dealer's/employee's time. You go home with your $$$, and the other member goes home with his new toy.

But wait -- the dealer/employee isn't done. One of them has to log the firearm on the bi-weekly PICS sale report. Yes, the PSP requires all FFLs in PA to complete a form every two weeks listing all firearm sales and transfers for which an approval number was received or denied; doesn't matter. AND, those sales better be listed on the bi-weekly report in the timely order in which the guns sold, because PICS keeps track and will give an FFL a ration of shit about a sale being listed out of order on the report. The dealer has to send payment for each PICS approval request ($2 ea, whether the sale was approved, held, or denied), and an additional $3 fee for each sale for costs of PICS. Making a single entry in the bi-weekly report accounting for your transfer to your forum friend is another 5 mins of the dealer's or employee's time.

Most dealers also log that transferred firearm into their acquisition / disposition record books, and that's another 5 to 10 mins.

Adding it up, that transfer took about 40 to 45 mins of the dealer's or an employee's time from start to finish, including what happens behind the scenes to keep the folks at 1600 Elmerton in Harrisburg happy. That 3/4 of an hour carries with it what's called a lost opportunity cost -- meaning the dealer or employee could have actually been selling item(s) from inventory that would have margin associated with them.

Whcih brings me to that Grant the dealer charged for the transfer. Barbers, hairdressers, and other service professionals charge rates for services that generally multiply out to about $50 to $75 an hour these days, maybe less in the rural areas. A good barber might be able to do four $12 to $15 haricuts an hour, and that's right at $48 to $60 an hour revenue -- that's gross, from which comes utilities, accounting service, payroll taxes, business insurance, unemployment insurance, medical insurance, rent or property taxes, advertising, freight in on goods purchased, telephone and internet, Gunbroker fees if he does online sales, etc.

If someone's getting paid $12 a hour to handle 4473s and PSP handgun forms, with benefits and payroll taxes the employer pays more like $16 an hour. So from the balance of the Grant, about $34 remaining after wages, $5 goes to paying to the PSP for the PICS costs and then the $29 left over goes to pay for the rest of the business costs listed above, and some profit. The dealer quite literally has AT LEAST $20 in a transfer, without any contribution to overhead other than direct payroll. Dealers that do transfers for $20 are not making a cent on the service, and may likely lose money if the transferring parties stand around and BS for a while. You might think that $50 is excessive, but taken in the context of what all the dealer has to do from the "red tape" side of the business, if a retail firearms business cannot cover those costs they are literally shipping $$$ out the door with every sale, and no business can do that for long and stay open.

Don't take my word for it; next time you're at your dealer, ask him how much time he or an employee spends on the bi-weekly firearm sale report.

Noah

**mak47** · February 5th, 2011, 05:48 PM

Every dealer is different. The amount they charge for a transfer will vary based on numerous factors:

Is it a small shop with just the owner working and no employees? If so, chances are he will charge $20-25 for a transfer. He pays no one else, likely doesn't do a large volume of sales/transfers so his records are easy to maintain. For that guy, he just made $20-$25 for writing a few notes and hanging out on the phone and didn't have to pay out anything to earn it.

What if it's a large shop with numerous employees and a large volume of sales and/or transfers? Then they'll likely charge $45-$65. They are likely paying an employee to do the work, their records are much more complicated and they have to factor in the possibility of them screwing it up which results in fees and fines from PICS and/or BATFE. Those mistakes also create additional work later, which costs money. Is it your fault they screw it up? Certainly not, but it's all part of the cost of doing business.

The other factor is competition. What other shops are near Gun Traders? How much do they charge? Chances are they charge about the same amount.

The other factor is motivation. Does the shop actually want to encourage folks to come in for transfers? I know where Gun Traders is, it's right outside Reading which is one of the biggest hell holes on planet Earth. My guess is that they spend a lot of time dealing with prohibited people trying to buy guns. It's a huge waste of time. Is that your fault? Of course not, but a business has to create policies and prices based on their normal everyday activities, they have no way of knowing who is and is not prohibited. High transfer prices will discourage prohibited persons from trying to buy in their shop.

Some shops actively seek transfer business. They understand that a high volume of transfers at $20-$25 each can amount to a lot of revenue--all of which is obtained without having to invest in inventory or a large staff. It also acts as a "loss-leader" which attracts people into their shops. They understand that someone transferring a gun is going to need accessories, cleaning gear, spare parts and ammo. All of these items carry a much higher margin than guns do.

Do I think almost $50 for a transfer is outrageous? Absolutely, but the solution to the problem is to find another shop that charges a better price. Gun Traders clearly has their own reasons for charging what they do. I think it's crazy, but if the only alternative was to spend another hour in the car, I'd probably pay it because to me, my time is worth more than $25 an hour.

I'm of the opinion that smart gun shops charge a low price for transfers. It gives the owners and employees a chance to meet people and forge relationships which in turn encourages them to return for future purchases. Most consumers will happily spend a little extra for that personal experience. They key is getting them in the door to have a chance. Cheap transfers offer an opportunity for that.

**300plus** · February 5th, 2011, 07:24 PM

Most of the gun shops in Indiana, Westmoreland, Cambria, Jefferson and Clearfield counties charge $25 to $30 for a transfer between walk -in individuals, which I think is a fair price for the service, especially if you are not a regular customer. They make $20 to $25 for their shop for the 15 to 45 minutes time spent on the transfer. Have to keep the lights on folks.

On the other hand, some of the same dealers charge $50 or more to accept a firearm purchased on-line or from an out of the area individual. The on-line purchase charge I can see the reason for- in many cases the local shop could get the firearm for you at about the same price if given a chance. The higher charge for a gun shipped from an individual seem a little 'punitive' to me.

**bennettgun** · February 5th, 2011, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by mak47

Every dealer is different. The amount they charge for a transfer will vary based on numerous factors:

Is it a small shop with just the owner working and no employees? If so, chances are he will charge $20-25 for a transfer. He pays no one else, likely doesn't do a large volume of sales/transfers so his records are easy to maintain. For that guy, he just made $20-$25 for writing a few notes and hanging out on the phone and didn't have to pay out anything to earn it.

What if it's a large shop with numerous employees and a large volume of sales and/or transfers? Then they'll likely charge $45-$65. They are likely paying an employee to do the work, their records are much more complicated and they have to factor in the possibility of them screwing it up which results in fees and fines from PICS and/or BATFE. Those mistakes also create additional work later, which costs money. Is it your fault they screw it up? Certainly not, but it's all part of the cost of doing business.

The other factor is competition. What other shops are near Gun Traders? How much do they charge? Chances are they charge about the same amount.

The other factor is motivation. Does the shop actually want to encourage folks to come in for transfers? I know where Gun Traders is, it's right outside Reading which is one of the biggest hell holes on planet Earth. My guess is that they spend a lot of time dealing with prohibited people trying to buy guns. It's a huge waste of time. Is that your fault? Of course not, but a business has to create policies and prices based on their normal everyday activities, they have no way of knowing who is and is not prohibited. High transfer prices will discourage prohibited persons from trying to buy in their shop.

Some shops actively seek transfer business. They understand that a high volume of transfers at $20-$25 each can amount to a lot of revenue--all of which is obtained without having to invest in inventory or a large staff. It also acts as a "loss-leader" which attracts people into their shops. They understand that someone transferring a gun is going to need accessories, cleaning gear, spare parts and ammo. All of these items carry a much higher margin than guns do.

Do I think almost $50 for a transfer is outrageous? Absolutely, but the solution to the problem is to find another shop that charges a better price. Gun Traders clearly has their own reasons for charging what they do. I think it's crazy, but if the only alternative was to spend another hour in the car, I'd probably pay it because to me, my time is worth more than $25 an hour.

I'm of the opinion that smart gun shops charge a low price for transfers. It gives the owners and employees a chance to meet people and forge relationships which in turn encourages them to return for future purchases. Most consumers will happily spend a little extra for that personal experience. They key is getting them in the door to have a chance. Cheap transfers offer an opportunity for that.

Do not think that a small shop owner with no employee's makes the whole amount of $20-25 as you say. We have business cost also, even though they may be of lower overhead As Noah Zark stated we have to figure our labor for that 15 to 45 minutes. Do not think that a small shop has a lot of down time, we are usually busier than most people think. We do not hang on the phone. We do have to worry about our inventory. Transfers takes us away from listing items on internet sites which I do. We do our own shipping. We do our own paperwork. If there is another customer that comes into the shop when transfer takes place, they may not be patient and leave if we can't break away from PICS and help them. Don't think we always get extra sales either, some people come to do the transfer because it is the cheaper than in their area. I have had repeat customers to buy Firearms, ammo and other supplies, but they are usually local. As I was told years ago by an elderly businessman " If you go into business for yourself you only work half days------------ twelve hours". Sorry to sound off, put yourself in our shoes.

**Daycrawler** · February 6th, 2011, 12:15 AM

Like the guys above said and what I said in post five it comes down to $. Time is money! I do most if not all of my gun buying at 3 shops. The one guys prefers to do private transfers before closing time. On more than one occasion I have helped lock up the shop and walk out the back door with him. Because of this I have built quite a repor with him. I can call him at home and he will help me out with gun questions. Like many others here I am shure have spent thousands on guns over the years. Build a good relationship with your shop and prices including back ground checks will probally come down. You will never get that kind of attention at Cabelas. Support your local gun shops or its cattle lines at Cabelas!

**Yentl Marmelstein** · February 6th, 2011, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by bennettgun

Do not think that a small shop owner with no employee's makes the whole amount of $20-25 as you say. We have business cost also, even though they may be of lower overhead As Noah Zark stated we have to figure our labor for that 15 to 45 minutes. Do not think that a small shop has a lot of down time, we are usually busier than most people think. We do not hang on the phone. We do have to worry about our inventory. Transfers takes us away from listing items on internet sites which I do. We do our own shipping. We do our own paperwork. If there is another customer that comes into the shop when transfer takes place, they may not be patient and leave if we can't break away from PICS and help them. Don't think we always get extra sales either, some people come to do the transfer because it is the cheaper than in their area. I have had repeat customers to buy Firearms, ammo and other supplies, but they are usually local. As I was told years ago by an elderly businessman " If you go into business for yourself you only work half days------------ twelve hours". Sorry to sound off, put yourself in our shoes.

Did you ever refund the guy's money that you stole for "business use taxes?"

**Bender** · February 6th, 2011, 01:53 PM

just got back from Stony Creek Outfitters in Reading not a whole lot of invintory but they will order anything and $25 transfers on a sunday, plus the guys working were friendly and helpful, indoor range is $15 a hour ID and ltcf needed to use range

**bennettgun** · February 6th, 2011, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Yentl Marmelstein

Did you ever refund the guy's money that you stole for "business use taxes?"

I will refund money on mistakes I have made. To say I stole something is misleading to others. I erred and admitted it. If you have something against me, e-mail me and we can discuss it. To bring this accussation on this thread that is on another thread is just wrong.

**MrUgly** · February 6th, 2011, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Yentl Marmelstein

Did you ever refund the guy's money that you stole for "business use taxes?"

Originally Posted by bennettgun

I will refund money on mistakes I have made. To say I stole something is misleading to others. I erred and admitted it. If you have something against me, e-mail me and we can discuss it. To bring this accussation on this thread that is on another thread is just wrong.

Ignore him. He's a lot like my elderly cat; makes an enormous amount of noise, but no one actually takes him seriously.