Nikon M-223 1-4x Point Blank for AR15

[mythaeus]

In case someone is looking for a good deal on "tactical" scope for their AR...

I just placed an order for one after going back and forth trying to decide on upgraded optics for my AR. I couldn't decide on an Eotech XPS, an Aimpoint of some sort, or the Leupold Prismatic Tactical. In the end, I'm still unable to justify $400+ on a red dot sight.

Anyway, I thought this was a good decision since my research found people swore that 1x sight acquisition is just as quick as a red dot in day light and even in reasonable low light conditions. Since it's not illuminated like the Leupold Prismatic, night time use is not an option. However, my don't use my AR at night. I have a different HD rifle with red dot sight for night use. The magnification is actually the most attractive for me. A lot of people purchase either the 3x or 4x for their Aimpoint or Eotech. This one is, well, built-in.

In the end, I came across the Nikon and since there's a promotion until 5/31 that if you bought an M-223, you'll get the mount for free.
I found a list of authorized dealers from the Nikon website and went through each of them. It turns out that SportOptics.com has the M-223 1-4x Point Blank for $246.36 with free shipping. That's the lowest I could find by $40! There was no way to add the mount to the order, but I called CS and told me that the mount will be shipped with the scope. We'll see. I'll keep this thread updated once I received it.

Al

[bman940]

Myth,
Great update. This has been a great promotion for Nikon and many folks participating in the sale actually ran out of product to sell. Like you said, the Promotion runs till the end of May. Here's a list of participating dealers from Nikon's web site. Best of luck and I look forward to seeing pics when you get your scope all mounted up!
Thanks for the update.

Bart


http://www.nikonpromo.com/m223.html

[mythaeus]

Myth,
Great update. This has been a great promotion for Nikon and many folks participating in the sale actually ran out of product to sell. Like you said, the Promotion runs till the end of May. Here's a list of participating dealers from Nikon's web site. Best of luck and I look forward to seeing pics when you get your scope all mounted up!
Thanks for the update.

Bart


http://www.nikonpromo.com/m223.html

Hey Bart,
Thanks for posting here. I was wondering if you can explain the product description on what seems to indicate that the 1-4x PB reticle is optimized for 55-gr. How does bullet grain/reticle (and possible barrel twist rate) work together in this case? Some people have said that that line saying "for 55-gr at 0 to 200" caused them to NOT purchase the scope (because they have barrels that are not 1:9 and shoot heavier bullets).

Point Blank reticle: Available exclusively on the M-223 1-4x20, this reticle delivers fast, extremely accurate shots from zero out to a 200 yard range “point blank range” for the .223/5.56mm 55-grain polymer tipped round.

Also, why polymer tipped rounds, not standard FMJ?

Thanks,
Al

[johnzbar]

Thanks for the heads up. I was looking for a 1x4 so I ordered it from SportOptics.com after reading your post. They have a text box on the order form where you can put special instructions so I wrote that I wanted the free mount and they had the scope and free mount on the receipt that they emailed me.

[bman940]

Al, Great questions and to be honest I don't have an exact answer. The M-223 1-4 With the Point Blank Reticle is as the name implies a close quarters scope. I have seen a few guys using them in 3 gun comp. without difficulty. At 200 yards and less utilizing FMJ at lower MV ( my wolf's came in at around 2800) still pinged the gong 10:10 at 200 yards and honestly with my older eyes I would rather have more magnification but if I can do it.....
I have shot barrels with 1:7 twists and actually just had this conversation yesterday with a gunsmith, There did not seem to be a difference in impact on a 10 in. metal plate between the 1:7 and 1:9 twists. Also remember the subtension on the Point Blank Reticle is 3 MOA at 100 yards. Makes for quick target acquisition and easy recovery from recoil for a follow up shot.
I think when they designed the M-223 Series of scopes with higher magnification for longer range shooting the FMJ's with MV's of 3240 fps just weren't around, mostly polymer tipped bullets ran at that MV so it was easy to incoorporate that into what works best for the scopes. If you utilze a BDC reticle you can obviously go to Nikon's Spot On site and enter your specific load information and get corresponding distances for your BDC circles.
I hope this begins to answer your questions instead of crreating new ones. I have put a Nikon M-223 1-4 scope on my .243 and .308 AR's and not had any trouble after sighting in for 100 yards hitting a 10 inch gong at 200 yards. This is a very versitile scope, I also have friends using it on .22 LR's.

You can also get this M-223 1-4 in a BDC configuration as a special order item from Midway. This has also proven popular with some guys shooting 3 gun comp. as shot distances increase. I believe Midway also has this scope included in Nikon's M-223 Promtion where you can get a free Nikon M-223 AR mount if purchased by 5/31/11.

Hey Bart,
Thanks for posting here. I was wondering if you can explain the product description on what seems to indicate that the 1-4x PB reticle is optimized for 55-gr. How does bullet grain/reticle (and possible barrel twist rate) work together in this case? Some people have said that that line saying "for 55-gr at 0 to 200" caused them to NOT purchase the scope (because they have barrels that are not 1:9 and shoot heavier bullets).



Also, why polymer tipped rounds, not standard FMJ?

Thanks,
Al

[mythaeus]

Thanks for the heads up. I was looking for a 1x4 so I ordered it from SportOptics.com after reading your post. They have a text box on the order form where you can put special instructions so I wrote that I wanted the free mount and they had the scope and free mount on the receipt that they emailed me.

Hey, you got it. Let me know how it works out for you.

Al, Great questions and to be honest I don't have an exact answer. The M-223 1-4 With the Point Blank Reticle is as the name implies a close quarters scope. I have seen a few guys using them in 3 gun comp. without difficulty. At 200 yards and less utilizing FMJ at lower MV ( my wolf's came in at around 2800) still pinged the gong 10:10 at 200 yards and honestly with my older eyes I would rather have more magnification but if I can do it.....
I have shot barrels with 1:7 twists and actually just had this conversation yesterday with a gunsmith, There did not seem to be a difference in impact on a 10 in. metal plate between the 1:7 and 1:9 twists. Also remember the subtension on the Point Blank Reticle is 3 MOA at 100 yards. Makes for quick target acquisition and easy recovery from recoil for a follow up shot.
I think when they designed the M-223 Series of scopes with higher magnification for longer range shooting the FMJ's with MV's of 3240 fps just weren't around, mostly polymer tipped bullets ran at that MV so it was easy to incoorporate that into what works best for the scopes. If you utilze a BDC reticle you can obviously go to Nikon's Spot On site and enter your specific load information and get corresponding distances for your BDC circles.
I hope this begins to answer your questions instead of crreating new ones. I have put a Nikon M-223 1-4 scope on my .243 and .308 AR's and not had any trouble after sighting in for 100 yards hitting a 10 inch gong at 200 yards. This is a very versitile scope, I also have friends using it on .22 LR's.

You can also get this M-223 1-4 in a BDC configuration as a special order item from Midway. This has also proven popular with some guys shooting 3 gun comp. as shot distances increase. I believe Midway also has this scope included in Nikon's M-223 Promtion where you can get a free Nikon M-223 AR mount if purchased by 5/31/11.

Thanks for the reply, Bart. It was very helpful. Gut sense told me that there isn't a difference, but I just wanted to confirm.

I actually bought a 2nd one already, even before the first one arrives. SportsOptics actually called me and double check to make sure I didn't make a mistake and place a duplicate order. I'm very convinced that this is the right decision, even after doing research on the Millet DMS-1.

I did considered the BDC and aware of Midway special on it. Midway actually is currently OOS on the mount so you can't get it for free. The reviews though seem to indicate that BDC is slower for acquiring target at 1x so I decided against that anyway.

Thanks for the information and PM too. I'm getting the first shipment tomorrow and can't wait to try it out.

Al

[bman940]

I look forward to pics and hearing what you think of your new Nikon M-223 Scopes.
Thanks for the questions and giving me the opportuity to answer them and clear up any confusion floating around.
Happy Shooting!
Bart

[Tomcat088]

Hey Bart,
Thanks for posting here. I was wondering if you can explain the product description on what seems to indicate that the 1-4x PB reticle is optimized for 55-gr. How does bullet grain/reticle (and possible barrel twist rate) work together in this case? Some people have said that that line saying "for 55-gr at 0 to 200" caused them to NOT purchase the scope (because they have barrels that are not 1:9 and shoot heavier bullets).



Also, why polymer tipped rounds, not standard FMJ?

Thanks,
Al

Howdy Al, while the Nikon rep may not know the answer to your question, I do. The Nikon M-223 Point Blank reticle uses "point blank range" as one of their sales pitches, although it's not something unique to Nikon scopes.

Point blank range, which is often referred to as "Maximum Point Blank Range" is something that occurs because of the trajectory of a bullet. You have to keep in mind that there is an offset between the height of the sight and the barrel, and what you are doing when you "zero" a scope. When you zero a scope, you are making the trajectory of the bullet cross a particular line on the reticle at a distance (say 100 yards). Relative to that zero, it's common knoweledge that a bullet will typically hit higher or lower than the "zero" at other ranges. People don't usually think it all the way through, but it's obvious to anybody that's ever shot, that bullets do not fly in a straight line, they fall because of gravity. This means that the bullet will actually cross the "zero" of the scope in two places. It'll cross the sight line once on the way up, and once on the way down. This happens with every single sight, including with iron sights.

Let's say you zero a rifle at 100 yards. Now let's say that you put a piece of paper at 10 yards away from the muzzle and you aim at a point and fire a round. The bullet will hit "low" relative to where you're aiming with the crosshair. This is because of the "offset" or sight height difference between the scope and the bore of the barrel. The barrel is actually on an upward angle relative to the scope, so that while the bullet falls as soon as it leaves the muzzle, the bullet still appears to "climb" because the barrel is angled. What this means is that it takes a little bit of a distance for the angle of the barrel and the sight setting to cross over and "zero". At 25 yards, the bullet may possibly still hit slightly "low" compared to the 100 yard zero, but it will probably be closer to the zero than say the 10 yards shot. This will continue until you find your proper 100 yard zero, where the bullet crosses the zero still on the way "UP". After 100 yards, the bullet may actually go higher than the zero due to the angle of the barrel and that the bullet was launched at. Probably not far past 100 yards, the bullet will reach the apex of it's flight and start to fall. Out at 200 yards, it will be a certain number of inches below the zero.

When you look at this over a range, you can notice that a bullet may not climb higher than a certain amount of inches (relative to zero), then hit "zero" at a particular range, and then not fall below a certain number of inches (relative to zero) until a certain distance. Think of this as something like we're shooting at a 6" target, for now we won't even pay any attention to the range. Now if the bullet never rises more than 3" above the zero, and never falls more than 3" below the zero, then it's anywhere we put the crosshairs on the target inside of that distance, we'll hit somewhere on that 6" target. Since bullets are always falling, you can even think of it another way. If the bullet never rises more than 2" above the zero, and never falls more than 4" below the zero, then we can still hold the crosshairs on the target and get hits to anywhere in between that range. This is what Maximum Point Blank Range really is in simplified terms. It means that you can hold the crosshairs on a target of a particular size, with a certain zero, and shoot. ANYWHERE under the Maximum Point Blank Range, you will make a hit on the target, IF it's at least the size that you figured on using. As I stated before, this works and is well known with any sight (including irons), and something that most hunters take advantage of. People know that if you aim for the middle vitals of an animal (or a certain size target), it doesn't matter what distance it is as long as it's LESS than the maximum PBR, they'll get a hit.

I'm not knocking the Nikon M-223 scopes, I like them and think they're nice. They are using this as a sale's pitch though, and it's not something unique to their optics. It's interesting that the Maximum Point Blank range for most calibers of firearms with a 100 yard zero, isn't a whole lot past 200 yards. With certain bullet weights, velocities, or other zeroes, this can be stretched further; but typically it's somewhere close to 200 yards. That's the reason that they list the distance as 0-200 yards, and they're correct in listing it this way. Remember that it isn't dependent on a certain twist rate, bullet weight, or even caliber size. Lots of .308 caliber firearms have maximum PBR's around 200-240 yards. It's all dependent on how high the bullet goes above the sight line, how far it falls below the sight line, and over what distance it does this; that is ALL that matters. Sometimes with certain bullets that aren't as aerodynamic or aren't going fast enough, they will have more drop because of a lower BC, and not fit into that point blank range. That's part of the reason why they may mention polymer tipped bullets. If you like the scope, reticle, and adjusted turrets, buy it up. If you are only buying it for this 0-200 yard feature, it applies to all other scopes as well. I'm not trying to knock Nikon scopes, I just wanted to properly answer your question about why 0-200 yards. I hope this helps, but if it's "clear as mud", please feel free to ask more questions and I'll try to elaborate further.

[bman940]

Tomcat, Thank you for taking the time to answer Myth's question so quickly and making it easy to understand. Sometimes the answers are so obvious we over think the question. I always appreciate guys who have way more shooting knowledge and experience then I have coming in and passing along the correct information. I know I don't have to, but thank you for the post.

[mythaeus]

Tomcat, thanks for the detailed explanation. I really appreciate it.

I got my first shipment of the M223 yesterday and put it on my AR immediately. I like it a lot so far, but since I haven't really spent anytime on it outdoors, I can't comment yet. What I can see is that the mount is super sturdy, the scope is well-built and the sight is very clear. I'm glad I bought the 2nd one, which should arrive today.

Will keep everyone posted.

Al