PICS Placed in Undetermined Status

[Mr Bub 2u]

Hi all!

Back in late December 2010, I went to the gun show at the farm complex in Harrisburg. Spent the day with a buddy walking around and fell in love with a pre owned S&W 45. I decided it was the perfect Christmas present for myself and bought it. It was at the very end of the day and when the dealer called PICS to get me cleared, it took forever and finally they came back and said it required more investigation.

So I waited and at the end of the 15 business days, I was told it needed more time for investigation and they had to deny me. I sent in my challenge form I received from the dealer, waited another 8 days and called. They said the letter was in the mail, no elaboration. As you can imagine the wait was starting to become annoying.

Well the letter came back with "Your recent PICS background check concerning a purchase/transfer of a firearm was placed in an undetermined status."

They had an old record hit from 2001 where there was a misunderstanding about me discharging my .22 rife on my land. Just to put in perspective, I lived in the boonies and owned a 5 acres and my nearest neighbor owned over 500 acres I was allowed full use.

It is a extremely isolated small town, just corn and cows. It's not unusual for most of the locals to target shoot off their back porch. Anyway, the County Sheriff's records show I was arrested for Menacing 2nd Degree: Weapon.

Back when it happened I went to court, I cleared it up and I was not found guilty. I even asked and was told by the judge and the DA that it wouldn't affect me in the future for gun ownership. I guess it's common when guns are involved to place someone on a watch list. They told me as long as I didn't have another incident within a year, it would be totally removed from my record.

Well I think they took care of the court documents clearing it up and that's why it's coming back undetermined. They had nothing else on the report showing any convictions. I'm thinking since the Sheriff performed the arrest, it's still on their system.

It shouldn't have shown up at all, now it's holding up my PICS clearance. Does anyone know (from experience) what I need to to to get it cleared up? The original Judge retired and I'm unsure since it was cleared up if anyone would have records to set things straight.

Thanks in advance!

Bub

[Xringshooter]

Hate to say it but you will probably need a lawyer to get involved. Them saying that it would be removed your records is all fine and dandy, if they actually did it. Things happen and people forget. Your lawyer will probably have to get in touch with the DA, the court and such to find out what is in your records and what statements are in there also. Then he can petition the court to remove everything if everyone involved agrees that it should be removed.

[Mr Bub 2u]

Thanks Xringshooter. I'm trying to get the court records but the little town's office is only open 3 days a week and half days (if I'm lucky). I'll try to get a lawyer but it's in mid-state NY. If anyone knows of a good one, let me know.

Thanks again!

[CoryCop25]

Undetermined status means you have been denied but they can't find a conviction. It sounds funny but it's the state, would you expect anything less? Good luck with getting it cleared up. It sounds like a mistake on whomever charged you in 2001 and a mistake on deleting your records from the system. If you were fingerprinted and the system did not update your disposition, your record will read "disposition unreported" and obviously that can be taken for many things. Good luck.

[Mr Bub 2u]

Hi CoryCop25, thanks for the helpful input. The process isn't very transparent for the applicant. They provided the bare minimum of information.

If they can't find a conviction, wouldn't it make sense that there wasn't one?

On the reasons for denial page of the letter I received above the charge it says "Docket/OTN/Tracking#: Unknown".

The charge is Class A Misdemeanor and maximum conviction would be up to a year. I thought even then it shouldn't count against me but I guess because it involved a weapon it's sounds worse than it really was.

Actually I wasn't fingerprinted, fined, jailed, or anything. Just a couple meetings with the Judge and the DA in the judges chambers. Didn't even set foot in the room where court is held. The judge has since retired and there is a different DA too. It's going to be a mess to clear up for sure.

I tried calling the PICS Legal Assistant and other numbers in the letter and they haven't returned my messages. I also called the Sheriff's office in NY where the arrest took place but they were unable to give me any info aside from saying I'd have to get the court to remove it.

Now with all the publicity about that nut job in Arizona in the news, I'm worried I'll be thrown under the bus to show they are getting tough.

It's becoming more about making sure I maintain my rights although I'll still be happy when I can finally take home my Christmas present. At the rate this is going, might have to make it a St Patty's gift.

[CoryCop25]

Oh boy! An arrest in another state on top of all of this?! Man I hope you get through this! Don't think for a minute that PICS is going to jump through hoops to help you. Do all the leg work you can and don't give up. Hell if it doesn't work out, come shoot with me. I got lots of toys...

[Pa. Patriot]

Undetermined status means you have been denied but they can't find a conviction. .

<sigh> Utterly false.

Hell if it doesn't work out, come shoot with me. I got lots of toys...

Sorry officer, if the OP does end up being denied, IE: prohibited under 18Pa.6105, allowing a prohibited person to shoot your guns would be illegal for both the prohibited person and yourself.
Infraction issued. Do not suggest folks break the law again here, even if it was in jest. (which there was no indication of here either way)

[Mr Bub 2u]

Oh boy! An arrest in another state on top of all of this?! Man I hope you get through this! Don't think for a minute that PICS is going to jump through hoops to help you. Do all the leg work you can and don't give up. Hell if it doesn't work out, come shoot with me. I got lots of toys...

Sorry you got an infraction for this, I'm sure you didn't realize that would have been illegal. I didn't even think about it being a problem until I saw the mod's reaction.

Good news is that I was given a reversal decision today so if you still want to get together sometime, I'll be 100% legal and carrying my sweet S&W!!

Do you know of any public ranges around Harrisburg that allow pistols?

Next is to get my CCL. Shouldn't be a problem as long as I have my letter with me, right?

Thank you all for the helpful advice. Ended up I didn't need a lawyer. It took awhile but what solved it was patience and working with the PSP to clear it up.

[Xringshooter]

Great to hear. In most cases a lawyer is needed, glad it didn't have to go that route. Don't know of any public ranges in the H'Burg area (I'm in State College), but check this place out. www.palmyrasportsmens.com I have heard very good things about it and it's not that far from Harrisburg.

Oh, and by the way , its a LTCF (License To Carry Firearms) not a CCL (Concealed Carry License). The LTCF is more than just a license to carry concealed. It allows you to do much more.

Forgot to add, yes carry the reversal letter with you. When you apply for the LTCF they will again use PICS to do the background check at the Sheriffs Office. If there is a question you will want to have the letter handy to help sort it out ...again.

[phillykev]

Thank you all for the helpful advice. Ended up I didn't need a lawyer. It took awhile but what solved it was patience and working with the PSP to clear it up.

IF you just got the PICS issue cleared up and nothing else, you may want to go through getting the arrest record expunged completely. It could pop up and cause other problems for you in the future. A lawyer will usually do that for a few hundred dollars, or you may be able to petition the court yourself.