Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    @chuck
    Honestly your beating a dead horse. This has already been discussed and let me tell you friend. You won't get through to anyone. Your either for it or against it. Don't waste your time arguing on here about it contact your legislators and show your support.

    I am all for leaving my gun in my vehicle in a parking lot and having that protected by law. A law to carry into that employers building is going to far IMHO. Leaving my firearm in my vehicle tho I'm all for it.
    "I would rather have my freedom and face the danger."

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by IraqVeteran87 View Post
    @chuck
    Honestly your beating a dead horse. This has already been discussed and let me tell you friend. You won't get through to anyone. Your either for it or against it. Don't waste your time arguing on here about it contact your legislators and show your support.

    I am all for leaving my gun in my vehicle in a parking lot and having that protected by law. A law to carry into that employers building is going to far IMHO. Leaving my firearm in my vehicle tho I'm all for it.
    I have heard no one mention creating incentives or disincentives for employers allowing or not allowing carrying at work/locked firearm in car. All I have heard are mandates. What I am talking about is different then anything I have read on this forum.

    If I am wrong and this has been discussed I apologize. If that is the case I would like to see those discussions if you can find them.
    I'll vote for Romney when he promises not to run in 2016.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    I think folks are misunderstanding Chuck.

    What he's getting at is that, all other things being held constant, take the following scenario:

    You're at work. You're leaving for the night, and on the way to your car (on the employer's property). You get stabbed.

    IF
    a)the employer DISALLOWS the carry of firearms, then the employer is LIABLE (because by impeding your ability to protect yourself, they have taken responsibility for your safety on their premises)
    b)the employer ALLOWS the carry of firearms, then the employer is NOT LIABLE (because they have in no way prevented you from defending yourself, they are NOT responsible for your safety)

    Basically, the only thing this makes businesses do is decide whether or not they're going to take responsibility for the safety of their employees, or let the employees do that themselves.

    Neither policy is supported.

    I wonder if there's any "case law" in regards to this.
    Last edited by legendarylorot; January 5th, 2011 at 04:52 PM.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendarylorot View Post
    I think folks are misunderstanding Chuck.

    What he's getting at is that, all other things being held constant, take the following scenario:

    You're at work. You're leaving for the night, and on the way to your car (on the employer's property). You get stabbed.

    IF
    a)the employer DISALLOWS the carry of firearms, then the employer is LIABLE (because by impeding your ability to protect yourself, they have taken responsibility for your safety on their premises)
    b)the employer ALLOWS the carry of firearms, then the employer is NOT LIABLE (because they have in no way prevented you from defending yourself, they are NOT responsible for your safety)

    Basically, the only thing this makes businesses do is decide whether or not they're going to take responsibility for the safety of their employees, or let the employees do that themselves.

    Neither policy is supported.

    I wonder if there's any "case law" in regards to this.
    That is EXACTLY what I would like to see done. I think it is a very fair compromise.
    I'll vote for Romney when he promises not to run in 2016.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Chuck View Post
    That is EXACTLY what I would like to see done. I think it is a very fair compromise.
    O ok I see what your saying. My bad. Yea that would be acceptable to me.
    "I would rather have my freedom and face the danger."

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by legendarylorot View Post
    IF
    a)the employer DISALLOWS the carry of firearms, then the employer is LIABLE (because by impeding your ability to protect yourself, they have taken responsibility for your safety on their premises)
    b)the employer ALLOWS the carry of firearms, then the employer is NOT LIABLE (because they have in no way prevented you from defending yourself, they are NOT responsible for your safety)

    Basically, the only thing this makes businesses do is decide whether or not they're going to take responsibility for the safety of their employees, or let the employees do that themselves.

    Neither policy is supported.
    If I understand correctly, you're talking about is a "strict liability" scheme. There are very few situations (in tort or criminal law) that make someone liable by definition in this way. To say that a law shifting from ordinary liability to strict liability is neutral (that "neither policy" is supported") is unfair. It's a huge change to the detriment of employers.

    If, on the other hand, you mean that employers CAN be liable for harm resulting from a no-firearm policy (rather than that they MUST BE liable, regardless of any other factors), that seems reasonable but not much of an incentive to change.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by The_War_Wagon View Post
    Geez... you need a better job. I can carry at MY workplace!
    You are one of the few LUCKY ones. Unfortunately MOST of us work in locations that do not allow even in the parking lot. I among them. HOWEVER, I have been told also that the company is not liable for your safety for any time other than once you enter the building and punch in for work until you punch out and leave the BUILDING.

    This is where I feel that this law would give me the protection I feel I need in todays society. Driving to and from work is MY responsibility for self-protection. Since the parking lot has NEVER been considered a part of the workplace, then this protection is up to ME... not the local police, as already mentioned numerous times by the police, judges, etc. and not the employer. I mentioned this in other posts on this forum, and agree that providing a LEGAL, LAW ABIDING citizen the right to self defense is the basis of this, AND providing the employer liability protection as well.

    Yes, the employer has private property rights, but I think everyone will agree that an individuals right to self protection trumps even that right.

    I HOPE that this bill gets introduced, gets passed, and gets done soon. But only with deep thought from all concerned.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Chuck View Post
    I'm not even suggesting mandating employers to allow carrying, just to absolve them of any liability if they allow carrying, from violent crime occurring at the workplace. This of course assume that employers would be held responsible for negligence resulting in a violent crime.
    In that case, I apologize for the misunderstanding. My reading comprehension must be in my other pants. I am 100% in favor of limiting or removing an employer's liability if they allow their employees to carry.

    I guess I'm one of the few lucky ones here. My boss likes the fact that several of us are armed.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by schr8er2000 View Post
    You are one of the few LUCKY ones. Unfortunately MOST of us work in locations that do not allow even in the parking lot. I among them. HOWEVER, I have been told also that the company is not liable for your safety for any time other than once you enter the building and punch in for work until you punch out and leave the BUILDING.

    This is where I feel that this law would give me the protection I feel I need in todays society. Driving to and from work is MY responsibility for self-protection. Since the parking lot has NEVER been considered a part of the workplace, then this protection is up to ME... not the local police, as already mentioned numerous times by the police, judges, etc. and not the employer. I mentioned this in other posts on this forum, and agree that providing a LEGAL, LAW ABIDING citizen the right to self defense is the basis of this, AND providing the employer liability protection as well.

    Yes, the employer has private property rights, but I think everyone will agree that an individuals right to self protection trumps even that right.

    I HOPE that this bill gets introduced, gets passed, and gets done soon. But only with deep thought from all concerned.
    I am confident that not everyone agrees with that!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mK2JYfZAmA When will America become America?

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Carry at work -- a prototype law for PA?

    Quote Originally Posted by P7hk9 View Post
    In that case, I apologize for the misunderstanding. My reading comprehension must be in my other pants. I am 100% in favor of limiting or removing an employer's liability if they allow their employees to carry.

    I guess I'm one of the few lucky ones here. My boss likes the fact that several of us are armed.
    I'm sure the misunderstanding stems from my poor communication skills.


    Limiting an employer's liability is a great idea, but only half of the solution, IMO.

    From my understanding, right now an employer or business is not liable at all for violent crime that may happen at the work place. They are liable for just about every other danger imaginable. Someone slips on some spilled milk, the business will be held accountable. If a business is in a bad neighborhood and people keep getting mugged in their parking lot, shouldn't they be required to make it safer?

    I can understand people who feel they shouldn't be required to, but then you should also believe they should not be responsible for providing a safe work environment at all. I too can understand this position.

    However, we live in a world where society believes an employer should be responsible for providing a safe work environment. It seems illogical to not also have them be responsible for providing safety from violent crime at the work place.

    Now there are many ways for an employer to try to provide safety from violent crime. Video cameras, security personnel, perimeter fencing, or allowing their employees to carry firearms to name just a few. An employer found doing any of those should be viewed as trying to provide work environment safe from violent crime, and should not be held liable.
    I'll vote for Romney when he promises not to run in 2016.

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