Can you have 25 yd accuracy with cheap factory 9mm ammo and a Glock?

[Delerius]

As an avid 25 and 50yd. bullseye shooter, I will tell you that the groups a person shoots, foremost, have to do with the skill involved. Cheap ammo does play a role, but it is not as noticeable at a distance of say, 7yds. There are a few obstacles that have to be overcome to get winning groups at 25 and 50yds. Ammo quality falls somewhere near the bottom of the list.

A pistol group is the same as a rifle. 1/2" group at 7yds.= 1" at 14yds.= 2" at 28yds. and so on. If you break it down by numbers, the muzzle of your pistol only has to be 3/100" off center of the centermost part of the X, if you have a 9" pivot (muzzle to wrist with a Glock 19), at 25yds, to print a shot 3" from the center of the X. To print a shot only 1" from the X, you only need to be 1/100" off center. That is roughly the thickness of a business card. So you see, the muzzle literally has to be perfectly lined up with the center of the X to hit it. I call it the X within the X. This is the thing that is hard to do. Main thing with this is, you have to be able to see well. A lot of people just do not have the lamps to see the center of the X 25yds. away. Take a .44 mag., 4" barrell, with a 4 power scope, at 25yds, and your group will look like a 12ga. shotgun slug was shot at the target, that is if you can hold the .44 still enough. Too many variables to overcome before you start considering ammo problems. As far as a Glock goes, I have never seen one print more than 2" from a rest at twenty five yds.

I won't try to tell you how to shoot, but I will say that when you go to the range, try to do something before you go that will curb the adrenaline rush you start to get at just the idea of going. I will usually do a quick 20 min. workout before I go. Also, eat a low glycemic meal about an hour or two before going. Drink water, only. No sugar or caffene. With the caffene, lay off of that all day if you plan on shooting groups that day. If you use alcohol moderately to heavy, you can forget ever being a bullseye shooter. Once you have all this down, then you can start experimenting with ammo and trigger pull rates and what not.

That there is great info. I appreciate the response...

I have come to a conclusion that the Glock 19 is not a target pistol, at least mine isn't. As hard as I try and for the amount ammo that has gone down the barrel, I should be getting a better accuracy from it. I was out today with the rear factory site back on and tho my average radius of grouping has decreased (factory sight helped), My overall results are still blah. I have a strong feeling now that my problem is in the trigger even though I'm pulling it like the pros tell me too. All five targets below were shot at 25 yards today...

[Delerius]

Here is the average file from today's shoot...


Today I also worked with my new CZ-85 Combat... The results can be found here and they are 10x better compared to Glock results... http://forum.pafoa.org/pistols-41/12...85-combat.html

[harold63]

Here is the average file from today's shoot...


Today I also worked with my new CZ-85 Combat... The results can be found here and they are 10x better compared to Glock results... http://forum.pafoa.org/pistols-41/12...85-combat.html

Bro, by no means are you in the blah zone. The center of your groups seem to average 2.5 high and 2.5 to the left. A simple .025" adjustment of the rear sight to the right will correct your windage. You can do a hold under (I have two G21's and I have to do a 2" holdover on one of them at 25yds., at least until I build the front sight up some) for elevation. The Glock trigger is not the best trigger in stock form when it comes to tight groups, but you can change some things and make it much better (and Glock parts, to boot). When you are squeezing the trigger (this is with anyone) and you get to the point of just before firing, your pull rate is the highest. If you have a heavy pull, already (5.5lbs or higher) your finger will generate a "stacking effect", even if your trigger does not stack. Simply put, your finger twitches. It is small enough that you may not notice it, but it happens. This will generate some laughter from some critics, but I started using an air soft pistol about three years ago. It has a long, heavy, DA only trigger pull. I focus on something with it and just start squeezing away. It is not meant for anything other than getting what's needed to pull the trigger, stronger, while keeping what you are focusing on in the sight picture. The principle behind this? The stronger you are, the less you shake when you pick up a heavy weight. It works with fingers, too. The Glock trigger cannot simulate the Airsoft trigger because it is not long and heavy enough. You won't get big biceps by doing curls with ten lbs. I am since on my third Airsoft pistol, but I only use it now a few times a week. I will even use it while sitting here reading posts, sometimes.

This method works for me, so it is not something I swear by for someone else. It did help me get rid of the "twitching finger syndrome" that everyone has, which is why so many people work on their triggers to make them lighter. Plus, I have spent enough money on ammo in the last six years alone to buy a new Honda Civic. So don't give up, it takes time and practice. I wish I had known about the Airsoft method six years ago instead of just three.

[harold63]

Oh yea, I have known my eye doctor for years, so he keeps me hooked up with rims that I can actually see out of.

[Brick]

Here are some things to think about:

You said:

I was really hoping for an improvement but even with them blacked out, the rear sight was still giving me trouble.

But, if you are really "seeing" the rear sight your concentration is in the wrong place. You are supposed to see the front sight, that is, should and must be your only point of visual focus. And don't give me any stories about seeing the front & rear sight and target all in focus, because it is physically impossible. Your body just cannot do it, though young guys have eyes that can change focus fast enough to fool their brains into believing they see everything in focus.

A couple questions, are you right handed? Are you skilled enough to call your shots? If you are the chart attached might help. Just bear in mind this is to analyze groups.

[Delerius]

Bro, by no means are you in the blah zone. The center of your groups seem to average 2.5 high and 2.5 to the left. A simple .025" adjustment of the rear sight to the right will correct your windage. You can do a hold under (I have two G21's and I have to do a 2" holdover on one of them at 25yds., at least until I build the front sight up some) for elevation. The Glock trigger is not the best trigger in stock form when it comes to tight groups, but you can change some things and make it much better (and Glock parts, to boot). When you are squeezing the trigger (this is with anyone) and you get to the point of just before firing, your pull rate is the highest. If you have a heavy pull, already (5.5lbs or higher) your finger will generate a "stacking effect", even if your trigger does not stack. Simply put, your finger twitches. It is small enough that you may not notice it, but it happens. This will generate some laughter from some critics, but I started using an air soft pistol about three years ago. It has a long, heavy, DA only trigger pull. I focus on something with it and just start squeezing away. It is not meant for anything other than getting what's needed to pull the trigger, stronger, while keeping what you are focusing on in the sight picture. The principle behind this? The stronger you are, the less you shake when you pick up a heavy weight. It works with fingers, too. The Glock trigger cannot simulate the Airsoft trigger because it is not long and heavy enough. You won't get big biceps by doing curls with ten lbs. I am since on my third Airsoft pistol, but I only use it now a few times a week. I will even use it while sitting here reading posts, sometimes.

This method works for me, so it is not something I swear by for someone else. It did help me get rid of the "twitching finger syndrome" that everyone has, which is why so many people work on their triggers to make them lighter. Plus, I have spent enough money on ammo in the last six years alone to buy a new Honda Civic. So don't give up, it takes time and practice. I wish I had known about the Airsoft method six years ago instead of just three.

Thanks for the input. I dry fire the Glock quite a bit thinking I can train my finger, but I must still have enough twitch as you say to move my POA just enough. When I compare the Glock trigger to my other pistols, more and more I dislike it because of the pull weight compared to the others. I also always wondered if the "twang" and mini vibration you get from dry firing a factory Glock also happens when firing a live round. I have read quite a bit about replacing the connector and spring so I'm going to add that to the list of things to do. Do you have a preferred vendor and choice of parts for your Glock's?

I'm going to kick the rear sight to the right a little as you suggested but I also plan on picking up an adjustable Champion rear sight with a front sight to match from dawsonprecision.com. I picked up a set from them for my 1911 and have had great results with them.

Here are some things to think about:

You said:

But, if you are really "seeing" the rear sight your concentration is in the wrong place. You are supposed to see the front sight, that is, should and must be your only point of visual focus. And don't give me any stories about seeing the front & rear sight and target all in focus, because it is physically impossible. Your body just cannot do it, though young guys have eyes that can change focus fast enough to fool their brains into believing they see everything in focus.

A couple questions, are you right handed? Are you skilled enough to call your shots? If you are the chart attached might help. Just bear in mind this is to analyze groups.

The problem I was having with the night sight was when I focused on the front the rear sight would go blurry but I had to work harder to maintain an equal amount of empty space on each side of the front sight while having the distracting white circles in the rear sight blurred as well. Basically the front sight doesn't fill up the rear notch completely. I really thought that by blackening out the rear sight would help, which it did a little, but I still didn't like the amount of gap or empty space I had on each side of the front sight. Going back to the factory sight there isn't as much gap plus I found that I could focus faster with it because of the design.
I am right handed and as for being skilled enough, with the Glock, I would say no. With my other handguns I can normally tell what caused the bad shot but with the Glock I haven't been consisted enough to tell. I do feel I work harder to get the shot on the target compared to my other guns which is also something that's not good.
Eventually I'll figure this gun out. I might have to take a break from it but I won't let it defeat me...

[Brick]

To add a little more effectiveness to your dry firing use a standard pencil with some tape wrapped around it to fit the inside diameter of your pistol barrel. Hang a piece of paper on the wall with a small dot to use as an aiming point. Insert the eraser end of the sharpened pencil into the barrel and with the pencil point almost touching the paper sqeeze your shot off. The firing pin should strike the pencil hard enough to propel it forward and leave a mark on the paper under your aiming point. Repeat and try to shoot good groups with your pencil.

when I focused on the front the rear sight would go blurry

It is supposed to. Your focus is the front sight!

Basically the front sight doesn't fill up the rear notch completely.

Good! It is not supposed to, and while it is correct to try to get an equal amount of light on each side of the front sight, your focus is still supposed to be on the front sight.

[Brick]

Here's some advise I gave to another shooter having similar problems.

I was hoping to avoid typing all this but I will anyhow. A newbie's arc of motion might sweep from one side of the target to the other while an experienced shooters arc covers just the 9 ring. And you cannot stop the arc simply because you can't stop your heart and all the little electrical impulses that flash through your body and set up muscle tremors. Here's how you reduce the arc of motion your pistol goes through as you aim.

Get into a comfortable firing position, grasp your pistol, close your eyes and raise the pistol to firing position and let it settle in. Now open your eyes and observe. If your pistol is not pointed at your target, shift your feet as needed to align you correctly and try again as a test. Don't twist your body to get on target! Congrats you have just achieved your natural point of aim

Next, lower your arm, regrasp your pistol, close your eyes again and raise your pistol to firing position once more. Now open your eyes and observe the alignment of your sights. Is the front sight centered (left & right) in the rear notch? If no, loosen your grip slightly and twist the pistol as needed to make the correction, then try again to check. Once you have the sights centered, congrats, you have just achieved your natural grip and natural sight alignment!

Now with both natural point of aim and natural grip when you fire a shot and recover from recoil your pistol will return naturally to the target. Practice these things and you will learn them such that you'll naturally fall into the correct position to engage a target and your hand will naturally grasp your pistol in its' natural grip even when drawing from a holster.

But there's more. Your grip should be very firm, squeeze with only your forefinger and ring finger, do not apply pressure with your pinky or thumb, they just go along for the ride. Pressure should be straight to rear, your index finger is reserved for the trigger and use just the first 1/3 of the tip. Squeeze the trigger straight to the rear when you're ready to fire the shot. When you get your grip sqeeze the pistol until your arm starts to tremble, then relax the grip until the trembling stops. That's the correct amount of pressure.

Now it's time to talk about area aiming, as long as your sights are aligned and you don't jerk, push or pull the shot, you'll hit where the front sight was when the shot breaks, so as long as the front sight is on your target within the area you want to hit keep your trigger squeeze going until the shot breaks and you'll get a good hit.

[Rundownfid]

If you are truly interested in getting real accuracy out of your pistols I believe you should get a really accurate pistol and work on accuracy. Unless you are very wealthy a .22 target pistol is probably the best purchase you could make. Join a club and really get into the accuracy aspects of pistol shooting. Trying to get really great accuracy out of the Glock is going to be frustrating, hell the poi and poa aren't even the same. A good target pistol will have finely adjustable sights and you will soon be keeping them all in the black and then mostly in the 10.

Don't know what clubs are close, perhaps Lewistown pistol is closest with regular bulls-eye practice?

[PhillySoldier]

This is a pretty large bump but I happened to come across the thread and wanted to add my opinion. Throughout the thread im seeing pretty much the same thing being said "you cant out shoot the gun" / "the shooter is the limiting factor". My opinion differs in that i'd say you dont know if you are out shooting the gun or if you are the limiting factor unless you know what is the best your gun and ammo are capable of doing.

In the recent past I did some ransom rest testing of many different brands of factory ammo. Testing was done from a Sig P226 9mm, shooting 10 rnd groups @ 25 yards. What I found was that the type of ammo you choose can differ greatly from one brand to the other and in deed be the limiting factor. Not much of surprise to see that your more expensive match grade brands like Atlanta Arms at $29 per box shooting under 2" groups. What did surprise me was just how bad some of your more normal $10 per box target rounds would do with groups of 5-6". Lastly Ill just add that I did try one non match brand that did as well as the match grade and that was Browning Performance Target at 147g. I used it for the test only and have never shot it outside of the rest as of yet.

Thats my 2 cents at least. Hopefully it might help others