Can you hunt with a Mosin-Nagant?

[knight0334]

The 7.62x54mmR is a very potent cartridge, in the same power class as the .30-06 Springfield. The spitzer bullets used in the military variants have a particularly elongated shape which results in a relatively high ballistic coefficient contributing to good long range performance and high retained energy. Data for a 12.0 g (185 gr) FMJ Match bullet boattail fired from a Dragunov sniper rifle at 823 m/s (2,700 ft/s) muzzle velocity, shows a retained energy of 1,012 J (746 ft·lbf) at 914 m (1,000 yd) with the bullet still traveling at supersonic speed .

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The .30-06 is a very powerful cartridge designed when 1,100 yd (1 km) shots were expected. In 1906, the original M1906 .30-06 cartridge consisted of a 9.7 grams (150 gr), flat-base cupronickel-jacketed-bullet. After WWI, the U.S. military needed better long-range performance machine guns. Based on weapons performance reports from Europe, a streamlined, 11.2 grams (173 gr) boattail, gilding-metal bullet was used. The .30-06 cartridge, with the 11.2-gram (173-grain) bullet was called Cartridge, .30, M1 Ball. The .30-06 cartridge was far more powerful than the smaller Japanese 6.5 x 50mm Arisaka cartridge and was still much more powerful than the Japanese 7.7 x 58 Arisaka as well. The new M1 ammunition proved to be significantly more accurate than the M1906 round.[5]

In 1938, the unstained, 9.8 grams (151 gr), flat-base bullet combined with the .30-06 case became the M2 ball cartridge. According to U.S. Army Technical Manual 43-0001-27, M2 Ball specifications required 835 metres per second (2,740 ft/s) minimum velocity, measured 24 metres (79 ft) from the muzzle. M2 Ball was the standard-issue ammunition for military rifles and machine guns until it was replaced by the 7.62 x 51 mm NATO round for the M14 and M60. For rifle use, M2 Ball ammunition proved to be less accurate than the earlier M1 cartridge

A 185gr bullet at 2700fps trumps a 150gr at the same velocity.

Barnes Cartridges of the World lists a standard WWII soviet issue round launching a 147gr bullet at 2840fps from the 29in barrel of the 91/30 Mosin Nagant vs the standard 150gr bullet at 2680fps of the US issue M2 ball rounds from the M1 Garand.

It ain't much.

You are comparing 7.62x54R versus M1/M2 30-06 military ammo. Consumer grade 30-06 ammo exceeds mil-spec M1/M2 pressures and velocities. Which is one reason why you shouldn't use "hunting" ammo in your M1 Garand.

In reality with the ammo available for the hunter the 30-06 beats the 7.62x54R by a couple hundred foot pounds of energy. The 7.62x54R is closer to commercial .308Win levels. Most 7.62x54R hunting grade stuff goes about 2800fps with a 150gr bullet at about 2600fpe. Where as the 30-06 hunting grade goes about 2900fps with a 150gr bullet at about 2800fpe.

[Noah_Zark]

You are comparing 7.62x54R versus M1/M2 30-06 military ammo. Consumer grade 30-06 ammo exceeds mil-spec M1/M2 pressures and velocities. Which is one reason why you shouldn't use "hunting" ammo in your M1 Garand.

In reality with the ammo available for the hunter the 30-06 beats the 7.62x54R by a couple hundred foot pounds of energy. The 7.62x54R is closer to commercial .308Win levels. Most 7.62x54R hunting grade stuff goes about 2800fps with a 150gr bullet at about 2600fpe. Where as the 30-06 hunting grade goes about 2900fps with a 150gr bullet at about 2800fpe.

All true, and one could argue that handloaded the 7.62x54R could approach or equal the 30-06 commercial ammo.

In Abner's original post he didn't specifically refer to commercial loadings. In his follow-up post he compared military Light Ball 7.62x54R to military M2 Ball 30-06, and given those numbers the Soviet Light Ball wins by a nose in a photo finish.

That said, in response to the OP's question the answer is "Certainly, using hunting ammo."

Noah

[Hawk]

Not to mention (I've read) the 30.06 not going sub-sonic until it hits around 1200 yards, and the 7.62X54R drops down to sub-sonic in the 850 yard range (out of the MN 91/30).
I've also read that the 7.62X54R is closer to the .308 than the 30.06.

[knight0334]

All true, and one could argue that handloaded the 7.62x54R could approach or equal the 30-06 commercial ammo.

In Abner's original post he didn't specifically refer to commercial loadings. In his follow-up post he compared military Light Ball 7.62x54R to military M2 Ball 30-06, and given those numbers the Soviet Light Ball wins by a nose in a photo finish.

That said, in response to the OP's question the answer is "Certainly, using hunting ammo."

Noah

Most certainly. Handloading can do all sorts of wonderful things. But when figuring potential, the one with the greatest cast capacity wins 9 out of 10 times given a properly built gun. The 1 time out of the 10 would be when the case's design is of a weaker nature like thin walls, web, or head which the reduces the potential.

Neither the 7.62R or 30-06 are of weak designs, but the 30-06 beats the 7.62R in capacity by 4grs of water allowing for more powder versus increased pressure to promote faster velocities. The SAAMI and CIP pressure limits to the 30-06 are 60KPSI and for the 7.62R are about 57KPSI. Greater case capacity + greater pressure limit = greater performance potential.

BTW, I'm not knocking the 7.62R. I think its a wonderful cartridge, and with it being rimmed - I prefer it. (I hate rimless cartridges)

[Noah_Zark]

But . . . but . . . the 7.62x54R is in a STEEL case! That's stronger than brass!

(Tongue securely in cheek . . . )

Noah

[abner13]

If ya go to any of the big ammomakers sites that let ya do a heads up comparison , like Remington or Federal , and compare the .308 Win , 30-06 and 7.62x54R Russian , with equal bullet weights and types , it's very close. There's less than 100fps difference between the three.

US commercial ammo is held to 55,000psi (62,000MAX) for .308 Win , 50,000psi (60,000MAX) for 30-06 , but I'm not sure about the 7.62x54R.

Blow up tests done back in the 40s-50s by several gunsmiths and ballistics experimenters like P.O.Ackley showed the Russian Mosin Nagant to be an extremely strong action , stronger than the US 1903 Springfield and German 98 Mauser.

[abner13]

You are comparing 7.62x54R versus M1/M2 30-06 military ammo. Consumer grade 30-06 ammo exceeds mil-spec M1/M2 pressures and velocities. Which is one reason why you shouldn't use "hunting" ammo in your M1 Garand.

Yeah , this gets kicked around on the military rifle sites too.

Actually , pressure is the same. Barnes book shows the US Mil specs and they're the same. US 30-06 commercial ammo is supposedly held back to 50k because of rifles like the Rem 740 semi-auto , which makes no sense to me because that rifle was also chambered in .308 and .270 Win , which have higher pressures.

The main reason is the pressure curve. Which is why ya should stick to powders in the 4895 or 4064 burn rate. These are the powders which the Garand was meant to use. Op-rod cracking has been known to occur with commercial ammo , mainly using 180gr or heavier bullets. But ya just don't know what powders are used in commercial ammo , so it's better to be safe. Keep a good fresh recoil spring in those Garands too.

Many years ago , I shot thousands of commercial rounds thru my Garands. I would buy it during the pre-deer season sales when it was something like $3.99 for a box of 20 at K-Mart. I did know to stick with bullets in the 150-165gr range.

PS/BTW , there are adjustable gas plugs available for the M-1 Garand and M-1A if ya want to use commercial hunting loads with heavier or lighter bullets.

[SharpShooter88]

Ya know at the end of the day, a couple hundred feet per second and a couple hundred Ft/lbs isn't going to kill your deer any faster. But a good shoot on the vitals will do the trick ricky tick!

[abner13]

Ya know at the end of the day, a couple hundred feet per second and a couple hundred Ft/lbs isn't going to kill your deer any faster. But a good shoot on the vitals will do the trick ricky tick!

Yep , a clean hit with a 30-30 drops a deer faster than a miss with a .300 magnum.

[Rundownfid]

Ya know at the end of the day, a couple hundred feet per second and a couple hundred Ft/lbs isn't going to kill your deer any faster. But a good shoot on the vitals will do the trick ricky tick!

I think you are absolutely correct. The Mosin is powerful enough for any game East of the Rockies. And has enough distance potential to out shoot its rather crude sights. Were I comparing the M1 to the Mosin-Nagant for a hunting rifle, in pure terms of usefulness excluding Pa's stupid laws, I would pick the M1; not because it is more powerful or theoretically capable of staying above the speed of sound further. No, both rifles are more than powerful enough, but the M1 has excellent peep sights and the Mosin doesn't, therefore, I would be more confident about taking humane shots with the M1.