Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    I'm sure these links will be interest, if not seen already:

    http://www.sixguns.com/range/CBSIXGUNS.htm

    http://www.sixguns.com/range/CBSIXGUNS2.htm

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    Quote Originally Posted by Guns N'at View Post
    I'm sure these links will be interest, if not seen already:

    http://www.sixguns.com/range/CBSIXGUNS.htm

    http://www.sixguns.com/range/CBSIXGUNS2.htm
    Thank you Guns N'at.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    Quote Originally Posted by tsafa View Post
    Thank you Guns N'at.
    Welcome, and nice work on your and w30wcf's end... I love looking over ammo other folks test results, BP or otherwise.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    Quote Originally Posted by tsafa View Post
    Thanks for you feedback and data W30wcf. I was particularly interested in your data from 38 Spl and .45 Colt. I calculate energies of 323 ft/lbs and 460 ft/lbs respectively. What model guns were you shooting?
    tsafa,
    The 38's were fired in a 6" Ruger Security Six 357 Mag.
    The 45's were used in a Ruger Blackhawk 7 1/2" bbl.

    Guns N'at
    Great articles. Thank you for the links.

    w30wcf

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    w30wcf - welcome aboard, John; good to have you here.

    Noah
    Wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    Black powder is to be weighed by volume. 30grs of weight measurement is NOT 30grs of volume-metric measurement, which is proper for blackpowder.
    For tests like this, not field loading, weighing is appropriate. The reason for this is that all black powders are not the same. Some are denser than others. If one shooter loads 30 grains by volume of Swiss, another uses Goex, and a third uses KIK, they will all be loading different amounts of propellant despite the fact that the measure reads 30 on all three. For a test, if you want to know what 30 grains of particular powders will do, weighing is more precise.
    The OP was not comparing powders but since I or you may be using another brand, weighing is a help.
    Pete
    “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.”Hemingway ...

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete D. View Post
    For tests like this, not field loading, weighing is appropriate. The reason for this is that all black powders are not the same. Some are denser than others. If one shooter loads 30 grains by volume of Swiss, another uses Goex, and a third uses KIK, they will all be loading different amounts of propellant despite the fact that the measure reads 30 on all three. For a test, if you want to know what 30 grains of particular powders will do, weighing is more precise.
    The OP was not comparing powders but since I or you may be using another brand, weighing is a help.
    Pete
    The reason I had brought that up was because of that very issue, than and there was missing clarity as to why he was using the scale.

    Certainly, 30 volume grains of FFFg will weight differently from 30 volume grains of FFg, Pyrodex, Swiss, etc, etc. But a newcomer could have easily read the first post and saw the powder weights and then attempted to replicate with a powder scale instead of a volumetric measurement. When giving out loading info we must provide all specifics, not just for us experienced folks, but for the people in the gallery that do not know these things.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

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  8. #18
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    The reason I had brought that up was because of that very issue, than and there was missing clarity as to why he was using the scale.

    Certainly, 30 volume grains of FFFg will weight differently from 30 volume grains of FFg, Pyrodex, Swiss, etc, etc. But a newcomer could have easily read the first post and saw the powder weights and then attempted to replicate with a powder scale instead of a volumetric measurement. When giving out loading info we must provide all specifics, not just for us experienced folks, but for the people in the gallery that do not know these things.
    I think there might have been some confusion because I mentioned the use of an accurate scale in my first post. The purpose of the scale was to weigh the bullets in these black powder tests in order to determine energy.

    For my testing I was interested in measuring the results of these blackpowder firearms under the normal field conditions that people usually use them under. In the field we normally load by volume.

    The biggest surprise in my testing is the the difference that the ball size makes. A tight fit greatly increased energy more then a few additional grains of powder. The balls went into my Walker will little effort and no shaving. I am planning to cast larger bullets soon and see what what gun can really do.
    Last edited by tsafa; January 10th, 2011 at 04:55 PM.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    I tested out two Traditional Black Powder Rifles. My .50 cal Thompson Flintlock and and old .45 cal Jukar Caplock.


    gun.....................barrel................load (vol).................bullet (patched)........avg speed..........energy
    Thompson Flintlock.....28"..............60 gr 2F GOEX BP...........178 gr .490 ball...........607 ft/s.........145 ft/lbs
    Thompson Flintlock.....28"..............80 gr 2F GOEX BP...........178 gr .490 ball...........1318 f/s.........686 ft/lbs
    Thompson Flintlock.....28"..............90 gr 2F GOEX BP............178 gr .490 ball..........1427 ft/s........805 ft/lbs
    Thompson Flintlock.....28".............100 gr 2F GOEX BP............178 gr .490 ball..........1460 ft/s........842 ft/lbs


    Jukar Caplock...........34"..............60 gr GOEX BP................128 gr .440 ball...........920 ft/s..........240 ft/lbs
    Jukar Caplock...........34"..............90 gr GOEX BP................128 gr .440 ball...........1676 ft/s.........798 ft/lbs
    Jukar Caplock...........34"..............90 gr 2F Pyrodex RS..........128 gr .440 ball...........1709 ft/s........830 ft/lbs


    It is interesting to compare the rifles at 60 grains to the Walker revolver when loaded with 60 grains. The Walker is at least twice as powerful at the same load. I attribute this to the tighter seal in the revolver. The revolver was loaded with 3F pyrodex at the load which would seem to give a some increase in velocity but the bulk of the difference no doubt is due to the seal. The rifles were loaded with a slightly undersized ball wrapped in a patch. The purpose of the patch is to create a seal, but as the test shows, the patch method still allows a lot of gas to escape around the ball while it is in the muzzle. In the future I plan to test "miniball" see how much it improves performance. A minball, is a conical shaped bulled that has the rear hollowed out so that the base expands when fired to create a tight seal.

    I used GOEX BP only in the Flintlock because real black powder is more combustible and will have less misfires. With the cap lock I tried both GOEX and Pyrodex RS in the 2F grade. The Pyrodex produced slightly better results.
    Last edited by tsafa; January 13th, 2011 at 12:05 PM.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Black Powder Ballistics

    I finally got a chance to test out some Conicals. Here are the results:

    Gun..........................load................. ..............bullet..........................avg speed...........energy
    .44 Walker.........60 grains 3F Pyrodex..........215 gr, .452 Conical.............971 ft/s.............450 ft/lbs
    .44 Walker.........60 grains 3F Pyrodex..........210 gr, .458 Conical.............1014 ft/s............479 ft/lbs
    .44 Walker.........60 grains 3F Pyrodex..........185 gr, .458 Minie Ball...........999 ft/s.............410 ft/lbs

    I used a Lee Mold to cast .456 bullets. The .456 mold is marketed for the Ruger and the .450 mold is marketed for the Remington, however the .450 mold is entirely too small to create the tight fit I was looking for. The .456 mold actually casts a .452 bullet as I measured it. I was able to seat the .452 bullet with little effort and no shaving into the Walker. The .458 bullet was created from a .452 with a little creative hammering on my part. Lead is soft and easy to reshape. The wider .458 took significant effort to seat and shaved off a nice ring, reducing its weight by about 5 grains. The Minie Ball was the result of further creativity on my part as I drilled out the base of some .458 bullets to create a hollow in the base. The hollow should theoretically expand when fired to create a super tight seal.

    It is interesting to note that my walker has started to show mild stretching in the metal behind the pin that holds the two halves together. This has resulted in slightly increased barrel/cylinder gap. The gap is still thinner then a razzor.This slight gap may be the reason why I saw a decrease in energy by the time I got around to testing the Minie Ball.

    I have published my observations on the following webpage so that other people can use it as a reference and perhaps build upon it with their own studies: http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/tra...allistics.html
    Last edited by tsafa; January 24th, 2011 at 02:03 PM.

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