OC and Ownership at 18

[Zini]

Hello all,

Everything within the quotes has been cleared up by a State Police Officer who told me I was in the right.

After reading many threads I was confident I was allowed to acquire a pistol (through a parent gift) and then openly carry if I chose to do so.

My mother being weary of the situation called a friend of hers who works for our sheriff. This person informed my mother that in no way, shape, or form I can have said pistol. This person said that the laws used to sway in my favor but for years now the law has changed.

I'm currently in Schuylkill County.

Can someone please confirm or deny this persons's claims for me?
A direct quote from PA Law would be greatly appreciated.

On a side note I've also read that I am fully within my rights to open carry a loaded pistol but haven't been able to find a "hard copy" that says so. Anyone know where I can find some?

Your help will be much appreciated, thanks everyone!

[Steve in PA]

Laws tell you what you can't do, as opposed to telling you what you can do.

Ask the sheriff to quote you the law that says you as an 18 year old cannot have the firearm.

As for your "open carry" question, read PACS 6106 which again states what you cannot do without a license to carry firearms.

In short, it is illegal to carry a firearm "concealed" on or about your person or in a vehicle unless you have a LTCF. Therefore, since you are carrying openly (not concealed) you do NOT need a LTCF.

However, you do need the LTCF to open carry in Philly and lacking a LTCF you cannot transport the firearm to places you desire to open carry.

[BimmerJon]

OP. Let us know what the friend in the sheriffs office says when you call her back to correct her.

I'd also inform the PSP that the Sheriffs office is putting out incorrect information in case they don't believe you

[Irwin Inhabitant]

I am NOT a lawyer or LEO. Just speaking from memory of other people in your same situation. One young guy in particular I know was in trouble for a similiar dilema.

If you are not 21 years old, and do not have a LTCF, you must be very careful when OC'ing that NO part of your clothing so much as even partially covers your firearm. If it is partly covered, then it is considered concealed, and is illegal.

Also, if you get in a vehicle with a holstered firearm, that is considered concealed too.

After all, it IS winter now, and unless you are strolling around at Clone-Mart or Christmas shopping at the mall, more than likely you will be wearing clothing that covers most holsters, right?

Not at all trying to bust your ballz, or discourage you from exercising your rights. I am just trying to help you stay within your legal limitations. Just because there are not certain specific laws on the books does not mean that you are not unknowingly violating other laws that are there.

Not trying to talk crap on lawyers or cops either, but if you break the gun laws, cops bust you, and lawyers can only do so much for your defense, and usually at a very high $$ cost. Right now, I really can't think of very many pro-gun D.A.'s who would just drop a gun charge without some hassle for you.

It is a terrible thing to a person of your young age to have a gun charge on your record that shows up in the future when applying for your LTCF, or making a gun purchase, or even on a job application check. As I mentioned, I know of a good kid who got in trouble. All he did was leave his fishing spot for a 5 minute round trip drive to a bait shop. He had a .22 revolver holstered on him, and that was enough to get busted by or called in by a game commision officer.

Really it is best to seek out advice from as many LEO's and PA gun law experts as possible. Good Luck with everything!

[Curmudgeon]

I am NOT a lawyer or LEO. Just speaking from memory of other people in your same situation. One young guy in particular I know was in trouble for a similiar dilema.

If you are not 21 years old, and do not have a LTCF, you must be very careful when OC'ing that NO part of your clothing so much as even partially covers your firearm. If it is partly covered, then it is considered concealed, and is illegal.

Also, if you get in a vehicle with a holstered firearm, that is considered concealed too.

After all, it IS winter now, and unless you are strolling around at Clone-Mart or Christmas shopping at the mall, more than likely you will be wearing clothing that covers most holsters, right?

Not at all trying to bust your ballz, or discourage you from exercising your rights. I am just trying to help you stay within your legal limitations. Just because there are not certain specific laws on the books does not mean that you are not unknowingly violating other laws that are there.

Not trying to talk crap on lawyers or cops either, but if you break the gun laws, cops bust you, and lawyers can only do so much for your defense, and usually at a very high $$ cost. Right now, I really can't think of very many pro-gun D.A.'s who would just drop a gun charge without some hassle for you.

It is a terrible thing to a person of your young age to have a gun charge on your record that shows up in the future when applying for your LTCF, or making a gun purchase, or even on a job application check. As I mentioned, I know of a good kid who got in trouble. All he did was leave his fishing spot for a 5 minute round trip drive to a bait shop. He had a .22 revolver holstered on him, and that was enough to get busted by or called in by a game commision officer.

Really it is best to seek out advice from as many LEO's and PA gun law experts as possible. Good Luck with everything!

For a couple years now I've been trying to find something in the statutes that relates to the points you have above (that I have emphasized with bold). Can you provide a link or citation for it?

For example, I know you must have an LTCF to carry/transport in a vehicle, but nowhere can I find that it is because it is considered concealed.

I have also never been able to find any definitions spelling out the differences between open carry and concealed. I have been certain such definitions must exist, but haven't seen them.

.

[IronSight]

I am NOT a lawyer or LEO. Just speaking from memory of other people in your same situation. One young guy in particular I know was in trouble for a similiar dilema.

If you are not 21 years old, and do not have a LTCF, you must be very careful when OC'ing that NO part of your clothing so much as even partially covers your firearm. If it is partly covered, then it is considered concealed, and is illegal.

Citation of law, please; case law would suffice as well.

Also, if you get in a vehicle with a holstered firearm, that is considered concealed too.

Considered concealed? No, it's considered to be in a vehicle, you could have a firearm "in" a motorcycle without concealing it.

After all, it IS winter now, and unless you are strolling around at Clone-Mart or Christmas shopping at the mall, more than likely you will be wearing clothing that covers most holsters, right?

Not at all trying to bust your ballz, or discourage you from exercising your rights. I am just trying to help you stay within your legal limitations. Just because there are not certain specific laws on the books does not mean that you are not unknowingly violating other laws that are there.

Not trying to talk crap on lawyers or cops either, but if you break the gun laws, cops bust you, and lawyers can only do so much for your defense, and usually at a very high $$ cost. Right now, I really can't think of very many pro-gun D.A.'s who would just drop a gun charge without some hassle for you.

It is a terrible thing to a person of your young age to have a gun charge on your record that shows up in the future when applying for your LTCF, or making a gun purchase, or even on a job application check. As I mentioned, I know of a good kid who got in trouble. All he did was leave his fishing spot for a 5 minute round trip drive to a bait shop. He had a .22 revolver holstered on him, and that was enough to get busted by or called in by a game commision officer.

Really it is best to seek out advice from as many LEO's and PA gun law experts as possible. Good Luck with everything!

Edit: for the most part, however, I do agree with your post /edit

See, that "good kid" apparently violated 6106. If you stay within the law then well, you're within the law.

Yes you can be unjustly arrested, tried, & possibly even convicted if a judge doesn't let the jury see the law, so sometimes it's not wise to walk the boundaries of our legal statutes. That's a choice each of us is free to make regarding how far we go to exercise our rights when we risk losing them all if we deviate only slightly.

..

To the OP, could I individually ever recommend anyone legally OC without an LTCF? No, I don't think it's quite worth the risk, but you're free to do so if you want; just be careful regarding the law. Considering bad weather might befall us this winter you'll have to watch out for 18 Pa.C.S. § 6107 as well.

[F16vipers]

I am NOT a lawyer or LEO. Just speaking from memory of other people in your same situation. One young guy in particular I know was in trouble for a similiar dilema.

If you are not 21 years old, and do not have a LTCF, you must be very careful when OC'ing that NO part of your clothing so much as even partially covers your firearm. If it is partly covered, then it is considered concealed, and is illegal.

Also, if you get in a vehicle with a holstered firearm, that is considered concealed too.

After all, it IS winter now, and unless you are strolling around at Clone-Mart or Christmas shopping at the mall, more than likely you will be wearing clothing that covers most holsters, right?

Not at all trying to bust your ballz, or discourage you from exercising your rights. I am just trying to help you stay within your legal limitations. Just because there are not certain specific laws on the books does not mean that you are not unknowingly violating other laws that are there.

Not trying to talk crap on lawyers or cops either, but if you break the gun laws, cops bust you, and lawyers can only do so much for your defense, and usually at a very high $$ cost. Right now, I really can't think of very many pro-gun D.A.'s who would just drop a gun charge without some hassle for you.

It is a terrible thing to a person of your young age to have a gun charge on your record that shows up in the future when applying for your LTCF, or making a gun purchase, or even on a job application check. As I mentioned, I know of a good kid who got in trouble. All he did was leave his fishing spot for a 5 minute round trip drive to a bait shop. He had a .22 revolver holstered on him, and that was enough to get busted by or called in by a game commision officer.

Really it is best to seek out advice from as many LEO's and PA gun law experts as possible. Good Luck with everything!

This is good advice

[Irwin Inhabitant]

Citation of law, please; case law would suffice as well.



Considered concealed? No, it's considered to be in a vehicle, you could have a firearm "in" a motorcycle without concealing it.



Edit: for the most part, however, I do agree with your post /edit

See, that "good kid" apparently violated 6106. If you stay within the law then well, you're within the law.

Yes you can be unjustly arrested, tried, & possibly even convicted if a judge doesn't let the jury see the law, so sometimes it's not wise to walk the boundaries of our legal statutes. That's a choice each of us is free to make regarding how far we go to exercise our rights when we risk losing them all if we deviate only slightly.

..

To the OP, could I individually ever recommend anyone legally OC without an LTCF? No, I don't think it's quite worth the risk, but you're free to do so if you want; just be careful

Sorry, I have no specific case laws to reference at this time. Just the reality of the "good kid" being busted, as well as a few other incidents I know about, and have been thru myself.

I just want to stress to the OP the importance of don't try to push to the edge of the gray area of the written/unwritten PA gun laws. Not all judges are real 2A friendly, and will almost always side with the cops and D.A. who is usually good at digging up some obscure statute to make themself look good.

Some cops, while trying to do their jobs, go overboard when they are not accustomed to seeing OC. A small percentage of them immediately think "gangsta wannabe". This is probably a more common mindset of cops in urban areas than it is in rural areas, and can you blame them for thinking like that sometimes? Reality check here.

Not dissing the cops, just pointing out a fact based on some of my own personal experiences. I realize now that there are some cops who are not familiar with the multitude of PA gun laws they try to enforce.

Just one quick example- more than a few years ago I was in downtown Pittsburgh, and had to draw on a punk who was trying to rob us and pulled a large kitchen knife. I was carrying concealed at the time. He ran away, and there were probably 20 witnesses.
I did what I thought was the law-abiding citizen thing to do, and had someone call the cops.
The cops were extremely rude, and argued and held me for almost an hour, as if I was the criminal. They claimed that a Westmoreland County issued LTCF was ONLY valid in the county of issue, and nowhere else. Also, they said that only one spare magazine was the limit for civilians.

I tried to convince them that if I was intent on breaking the law, I never would have had someone call it in, and then wait for them.

It was a very young female cop who finally set them straight. They let me go but kept my ammo. So I got back my Makarov, 3 empty magazines, and had chafed wrists from the too tight cuffs. I was so mad and upset that I blew off our plans for the day, and got out of Allegheny County ASAP.

I had a little chuckle over it, I am sure they did not know the difference between standard 9mm Luger/Parabellum ammo, amd Makarov 9x18 ammo, which they probably kept to use for themselves.

I am a little older and more aware of my rights.

[bogey1]

I had a little chuckle over it, I am sure they did not know the difference between standard 9mm Luger/Parabellum ammo, amd Makarov 9x18 ammo, which they probably kept to use for themselves.

Im surprised you didnt get sued....

[Zini]

Picked up the Glock last night, and went out target shooting in the morning.

When I got home I found some time to call the Sheriff. I asked him questions regarding Transportation, Open Carry, and when Open Carrying may the weapon be loaded. This time around the man agreed with everything I had to say and told me I was in fact in the right this whole time.

On a side note a local gun shop owner, who's business I won't mention, still doesn't agree that I may open carry at the age of 18 or even shoot the pistol without adult supervision. Oh well.