Want LEO opinion on procedure

[Defender]

Today I saw a video where a cop is at a drug store and the perp walks in. The cop draws his gun and the suspect dosen't listen. They start to scuffle and then he puts the gun away until he subdues suspect. My question is, if a cop cannot shoot an unarmed man, why pull your gun in this scenario? Was the officer taught to react in the way he did? I would be interested to know how you would have reacted.

[legendarylorot]

There's a bit of info missing. Is there any chance that we can get a link to the video?

[Defender]

There's a bit of info missing. Is there any chance that we can get a link to the video?

Sorry, I don't know how to put in the link. I saw it on Yahoo. It happened at a Walgreens somewhere. The LEO was investigating a previous robbery and it all went down while he was there.

[cdi]

What makes you think a cop can not shoot an unarmed man?
It can be very proper under some circumstances for the police to shoot unarmed folk.

[tl_3237]

Is this the video???

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/...7pt6mi&newfp=1

[twoguns]

This may come as a surprise to some folks: shooting the perpetrator of a crime is not always the best way to handle things. Lethal force is an absolute very last option. If a perpetrator of a crime can be subdued without use of deadly force that is generally a better way to go.

Killing another human being, even when justified, carries with it a lot of weight; legal, emotional, spiritual, etc.

Go do a bit of research on "mark of Cain syndrome" It may give you some answers.

[knight0334]

Today I saw a video where a cop is at a drug store and the perp walks in. The cop draws his gun and the suspect dosen't listen. They start to scuffle and then he puts the gun away until he subdues suspect. My question is, if a cop cannot shoot an unarmed man, why pull your gun in this scenario? Was the officer taught to react in the way he did? I would be interested to know how you would have reacted.

Usually the last person to draw is the first person to fall. Displaying a firearm is another use of force to compel a person to surrender. Despite what some defensive classes teach, there are times when you want your gun drawn from it's holster and aimed before you need to fire, not the .5 to 5 seconds after you think you need to fire.

Using a gun isn't just for the immediate life/death situation, it can also be used to compel a surrender and also to de-escalate a situation.

[JIDinPhilly]

This is from liveleak.com about the video...


A police officer interrupted a robbery of the Walgreens store early Thursday morning, the second at the store in less than four hours.

The officer entered the store around 5:45 a.m. to pick up surveillance video of the initial robbery, which happened at 2:15 a.m. at the 2710 Salem Ave. pharmacy in Dayton OH.

While in line behind the suspect, the officer saw the suspect reach into the drawer and remove money. The officer drew his weapon and ordered the man, 55-year-old Donald Cotten, to the ground. A struggle ensued with the officer at a disadvantage, having drawn his weapon, Sgt. Moises Perez, head of the robber unit, said.

“We wasn’t going to shoot the guy because he was unarmed,” Perez said. “The problem was getting the gun back into a secure holster.”

Security video showed the officer fending off Cotten with one hand while holding his sidearm in the other. As the pair struggled Officer Joshua Campbell was able to holster his weapon and take Cotten to the ground. During the struggle, Cotten hit the officer several times in the head and face, dislodging the officer’s radio ear piece, breaking his communications with dispatch.

Perez said the blows stunned Campbell for a moment.

The video showed Cotten escaping Campbell and trying to get out the door before Campbell grabbed him again and took him down a second time just outside the drugstore’s entrance. During the struggle, Cotten repeatedly attempted to grab Campbell’s sidearm. Once on the ground, two drugstore employees rushed out an assisted Campbell in restraining Cotten, according to the police report.

According to Perez, when dispatch was unable to reach Campbell after his initial report of a struggle, backup was sent with sirens and lights. It took officers about 5 minutes to reach the scene because of weather and road conditions.

“In a situation like that it seems like forever,” Perez said. “Every minute seems like an hour.”

Once in cuffs, Cotten was taken to a local hospital for a precautionary checkup then to the Montgomery County Regional Jail. He has been charged with aggravated robbery, assault of a police officer and robbery, according to Dayton Municipal Court records.

Cotten had a hammer and box cutter in a backpack he was wearing, the sergeant said.

The assistance of the two employees was of an “immense help”, keeping Cotten from getting the officer’s sidearm, Perez said.

“We love the public. We always have backup, and we appreciate it,” Perez said of the assistance.

Police said Cotten is not a suspect in the earlier robbery of the Walgreens. Less..

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bd8_1292531970

[GunLawyer001]

Usually the last person to draw is the first person to fall. Displaying a firearm is another use of force to compel a person to surrender. Despite what some defensive classes teach, there are times when you want your gun drawn from it's holster and aimed before you need to fire, not the .5 to 5 seconds after you think you need to fire.

Using a gun isn't just for the immediate life/death situation, it can also be used to compel a surrender and also to de-escalate a situation.

I agree with part of this, but I would change the phrase "[d]isplaying a firearm is another use of force..."

Defensive displays are not "uses" of force, deadly or otherwise. The PA statutes dealing with "use of force" contemplate pulling the trigger, swinging an axe, stabbing with the knife. "Threats" are covered elsewhere, and the threshold where you might be justified in making a threat is much lower than the threshold for "using" deadly force.

John Lott's book More Guns, Less Crime discusses the benefits and effectiveness of defensive displays. Most reasonably sane criminals will flee if you display a gun, if all they are after is money or your car. They aren't willing to risk death over the fungible whatever that you have.

Before you pull the trigger and use force, you have to have a reasonable fear of imminent death or crippling injury, rape, or kidnapping (and there are additional requirements). Before you display a firearm as a threat, you just have to satisfy the elements of "justification":

§ 503. Justification generally
(a) General rule.--Conduct which the actor believes to be necessary to avoid a harm or evil to himself or to another is justifiable if:

(1) the harm or evil sought to be avoided by such conduct is greater than that sought to be prevented by the law defining the offense charged;
(2) neither this title nor other law defining the offense provides exceptions or defenses dealing with the specific situation involved; and
(3) a legislative purpose to exclude the justification claimed does not otherwise plainly appear.

(b) Choice of evils.--When the actor was reckless or negligent in bringing about the situation requiring a choice of harms or evils or in appraising the necessity for his conduct, the justification afforded by this section is unavailable in a prosecution for any offense for which recklessness or negligence, as the case may be, suffices to establish culpability.

[Defender]

What makes you think a cop can not shoot an unarmed man?
It can be very proper under some circumstances for the police to shoot unarmed folk.

Well, that's why I was looking for an LEO opinion. From what I know, I think a cop can get into some serious troble if he shoots an unarmed man. Look at those cop shows, I seen one where a perp had a gun and as the coprs approached, he put the gun to his own head. The cops DID/COULD not shoot when things turned this way. Later on they said that their state law said when it turned into a suicide situation - they could not shoot an ARMED man.