open carry

[blueeyedbyrd]

there's also a guns and kids thread here http://www.pafoa.org/forum/question-...guns-kids.html

[axmdr40]

ha, turkey day brought a similar situation for me...whenever I leave the city I like to open carry, and when I went home on Wednesday my mother looks and me and starts off with the typical...You shouldn't do that, why do you think you need that thing, It scares people when you carry it out like that, its gonna make you a target for criminals, etc etc etc. She'll never understand, and I'm afraid someday it will come back to bite her. She never locks the doors to the house, car is always unlocked in the driveway.

It is funny...the only person ever to react in any way negative to my open carrying...is the one in my own house...she just can't accept that her youngest is grown up.

[Montanya]

ha, turkey day brought a similar situation for me...whenever I leave the city I like to open carry, and when I went home on Wednesday my mother looks and me and starts off with the typical...You shouldn't do that, why do you think you need that thing, It scares people when you carry it out like that, its gonna make you a target for criminals, etc etc etc. She'll never understand, and I'm afraid someday it will come back to bite her. She never locks the doors to the house, car is always unlocked in the driveway.

It is funny...the only person ever to react in any way negative to my open carrying...is the one in my own house...she just can't accept that her youngest is grown up.

I think it's a parents thing, she hears about people getting harassed, arrested, etc and they don't want anything bad to happen to you.

[RichP]

Forgive me, I know I could dig hard for the answer to this, as its frequently trodden territory around here but perhaps somebody can just chime in and save me the time with a simple answer or two if they would be so kind


1) are you required to produce ID for a police officer in PA

2) if confronted by an LEO would you be required to follow his order to conceal the weapon/surrender the weapon/leave the area (my guess would be no. being that you need only follow lawful orders??)

3) would you be required to speak at all to a police officer that stopped you, i.e. could I just sit and stare at his mug and see what happens? or perhaps repeat the second ammendment or something similiar with sharp redundancy?

4) would it be a good bet to just try to leave the area? what happens if Im detained?

Basically I'm getting ready to strap on the holster and start with the OC. Thing is, I dont look the part of an offduty LEO, being freshly 21 and babyfaced to boot.

Im just tryin to find a general consensus on the best way to act if hassled which for some reason I anticipate happening. Seems like the jury can be somewhat out on the best way of handling a situation.

I dont care to bend at all from harassment from the police If I'm doing nothing more than exercising a right. If that means pissing a cop or two off, then so be it, if they are so ignorant as to try to trample my rights or inconvenience me in any way for no reason. I mean Im not talking about DISRESPECTING any cops, just not bending for them in fear as so many people do.

I know some gun owners may even see that as a problem, giving other guys OC'ing a bad name or whathaveyou by 'stirring the pot'? I assure you Im not LOOKING for trouble! I read the thread about the guy at sonic, and it seems like he handled it well, but it just lends itself to the question: why would you even produce the LTCF (which I do have) when youre not required for an OC on foot, y'know?

i dont know, I just dont want to be apprehensive about doing something legal and well within my rights just because Im unsure how to handle a problem if it were to arise.

Please pardon my FAQs, I assure you ill be sniffing around the forum when I get spare time

[Montanya]

Forgive me, I know I could dig hard for the answer to this, as its frequently trodden territory around here but perhaps somebody can just chime in and save me the time with a simple answer or two if they would be so kind


1) are you required to produce ID for a police officer in PA

2) if confronted by an LEO would you be required to follow his order to conceal the weapon/surrender the weapon/leave the area (my guess would be no. being that you need only follow lawful orders??)

3) would you be required to speak at all to a police officer that stopped you, i.e. could I just sit and stare at his mug and see what happens? or perhaps repeat the second ammendment or something similiar with sharp redundancy?

4) would it be a good bet to just try to leave the area? what happens if Im detained?

Basically I'm getting ready to strap on the holster and start with the OC. Thing is, I dont look the part of an offduty LEO, being freshly 21 and babyfaced to boot.

Im just tryin to find a general consensus on the best way to act if hassled which for some reason I anticipate happening. Seems like the jury can be somewhat out on the best way of handling a situation.

I dont care to bend at all from harassment from the police If I'm doing nothing more than exercising a right. If that means pissing a cop or two off, then so be it, if they are so ignorant as to try to trample my rights or inconvenience me in any way for no reason. I mean Im not talking about DISRESPECTING any cops, just not bending for them in fear as so many people do.

I know some gun owners may even see that as a problem, giving other guys OC'ing a bad name or whathaveyou by 'stirring the pot'? I assure you Im not LOOKING for trouble! I read the thread about the guy at sonic, and it seems like he handled it well, but it just lends itself to the question: why would you even produce the LTCF (which I do have) when youre not required for an OC on foot, y'know?

i dont know, I just dont want to be apprehensive about doing something legal and well within my rights just because Im unsure how to handle a problem if it were to arise.

Please pardon my FAQs, I assure you ill be sniffing around the forum when I get spare time

The link in my sig is a great place to start about your rights in a police encounter. If you are on foot, you are required to verbally ID yourself to a police officer, you are NOT required to show your drivers liscense or submit to any searches without probable cause, this INCLUDES a pat down. If you are open carrying they have no real need for a pat down as your weapon is obvious anyway.

If you are ORDERED to relinquish your firearm I would immediatly insist that they write you a reciept for it even if he says he will return it at the end of the encounter. Otherwise if you are REQUESTED to relinquish your firearm I would say "I would rather not if I am not REQUIRED to" (as has been said in previous discussions, the officer might not be familiar with the design and may be dangerous to allow him to handle/clear your weapon) you will know if it's an order, as they will not give you the option.

No officer should give you the ORDER to conceal, they typically will ASK that you please conceal it, (as far as that goes, you may not have a LTCF if you are on foot OC'ing and concealing could be illegal) as far as them requesting that you leave the area that is sketchy as I have not heard of them doing that and depending on where you are i.e. county building, school, they MAY be able to order you to leave. I would think in the case of the guy at Sonic, the manager said he had no issue with him so the officer has no right to ask him to leave as he has no property rights there and the management has lodged no complaint, if someone at the location has an issue with the firearm they are free to go.

The best thing you can remember is when you are in any encounter with a LEO be POLITE, respectful and HONEST, (if you are asked something you would prefer not to answer, just say so, don't LIE about it). If at some point you see the officer is doing his best gestapo routine make sure you clam up and ask if you are free to go or if you are being detained? But that goes even if they are being nice, sometimes they start with the good cop "I'm just trying to help you out of this situation" If they say you are being detained, ask why. There is plenty of president that shows that OC is NOT a good reason for a terry stop.

If during any part of a police routine they are ASKING PERMISSION, to search you or basically asking your permission for anything, I would politely decline. At no time should you be agitated or agressive with them, make sure you are non-confrontational and not acting irate with them.

In the end, many people are bullied by police who use their assumed athority to get you to incriminate yourself or get you to submit to things they could not otherwise legally do, including providing ID and submitting to searches just because the officer "asks" if he can see it. If stopped on foot I woud provide no physical id/LTCF just verbally my name, DOB and address.

I am not a lawyer, all the above is based off my own research and education and I tend to ramble so if it runs together or does not make sense, sorry Again watch the youtube link to the "Busted:The citizen's guide to surviving a police encounter" in my sig, it is very enlightening. Per that video/web site the phrases you need to know is...

- Am I free to go? Am I being detained?
- I do not submit to any searches
/ramble off

[RichP]

Thanks Montanya.

Yea I mean I was fairly well aware of the actual laws surrounding the OC issue, and certainly privy to the 'no search without probable cause or warrant' commandmant. Lord knows Ive saved my ass on a number of occasions with that one as a much younger youngster

I guess the main question was about the ID. I just dont feel like cooperating with ANY request from a LEO when in reality he/she shouldnt be requesting anything at all. Now If I'm ever in the wrong, and lord knows if been there, ill be fully cooperative with law enforcement up until the point where it becomes incriminating. But with this, my attitude is 'Im not doing anything wrong, dont expect me to make this any easier for you, officer, who is up my ass for no reason" silently in my head, of course.

I just hope it never comes to that. I really do. If only because I'm thinking back on some hard up cops with that god complex garbage and it could potentially be really hard for me to not become argumentative with them to a certain degree.

After all, being polite isnt the law of the land. If the cop chooses to be a jag-off, why should I sit and be polite in my responses? Because he has a badge and I dont? pah and bah and pfft! get off my rights. Ill tell a damn cop to go back to the academy.

So with all that in mind, heres hoping that my right to bear arms in defense of myself does not get questioned or infringed upon.

[Montanya]

While being polite is certainly not required by law, it then gives them more ammo to use against you. "He was combatative, acted agressively toward me" etc. If you are calm and polite, they have nothing. You are acting within the law and not opening yourself up to them stating otherwise. I would also advise that if you are stopped on foot and you notice that the police car has a camera in it to request that you step over in front of the vehicle so your entire encounter is on tape should you need it to defend yourself in court. Also, never a bad idea to identify the officer and his badge number should you need to file a complaint.

As for the ID thing, yeah that is always good to know, you cannot just sit there mute and say nothing or recite the 2nd amendment over and over, as that will get you put in cuffs and drug down to the station or cuffed and then searched and your wallet then searched for ID. When I see a LEO while out I don't try and walk the other way, put my head down or look away, I will often go out of my way to walk past them. I have already walked right past a North Fayette police officer and a Allegheny County Sheriff Deputy and neither said anything about my firearm and both certainly saw it (I was carrying a full frame .45) and they were both on the firearm's side of me.

I have also seen reference to people carrying a pocket recorder so they can record for themselves any encounter with a LEO, and that is always a good idea. While a digital recorder is nice, I am poor so I go with a microcasette recorder, which can typically be found at like radio shack or best buy's I would guess.

[Emptymag]

Welcome to the forum Rich.

The only thing I can think of regarding an officer asking to see your LTCF is that you do need one if you plan on driving.

That's all I got. I'm tired.

[RichP]

I dont think combative or aggressive are ever even close to an option. I was kinda being faceticious with the "tell a cop to go back to the academy" line. heh. Im just suggesting "not-sugarcoated". In other words, obviously displaying my displeasure at such a frivolous baseless stop.

Ok so I couldnt sit mute, but If IDed myself,DOB,addy etc. After that how about mute mode. For some reason Im curious to try that...