Defence against vandals

[N3HCP]

Here's one for the lawyers, both real and arm-chair:

Given the increasing number of vandalism's in and around Lancaster lately, this question came to mind. First, let's all agree we can't use deadly force, for which read guns, to defend or protect property. OK, so let's say Joe Six-pack is sitting at home one evening and hears glass breaking form outside. He goes to the window and observes a person breaking the windows on his neighbors cars. He immediately calls 911 and reports the situation. He further observes the the vandals are proceeding from car to car and his brand new pick up is next! being the concerned husband and father he is, he is always armed. He then proceeds outside, with his gun concealed, and confronts the vandals, admonishing them to bypass his truck. So far so good. No one can fault him for trying to protect his property.

Now it gets tricky. The Vandal pulls a gun from his belt, utters a series of profanities, and points the gun at our hero. At this point Joe's training kicks in and Mr. vandal takes two to the chest in just under 2 seconds.

Clearly, if Joe had come out of the house with gun in hand he could have been construed as the aggressor and might loose the ability to claim self defence, but since the bad guy was the on to escalate the confrontation to deadly force, is Joe off the hook? Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Joe's account of the encounter can be verified by witnesses. Thoughts???

[XD45]

the arm-chair post whore in me says it would probably depend on the police/prosecutors your dealing with, basically it could go either way depending on how they feel about it, then of course its up to the jury and you never know how that would go..

[Montanya]

I am gonna guess that a DA could certainly argue you have car insurance for a reason, had he stayed inside he was in no imminent danger, hence no need to take a life to save a car window. That is like running into the ghetto and yelling racial slurs and then shooting someone that comes to kick your ass. You put yourself in that position of imminent harm.

Then again, go out and get in your car like you didn't notice them smashing up the neighbors cars and pretend you were going for a pint of ben and jerry's and get in and start up the car, if you have the opportunity to move the car out of harm's way, DO IT, if they then proceed to smash your window, defend yourself.

When you are questioned about it, you say to the police I was trying to move my vehicle out of harms way and the vandal attacked me. Which in that case, is true, but then it moves from defending your car to defending your life.

Either way a jackass DA can certainly ruin your life, but only you can determine if the insurance deductable is worth being at home with your family vs. being in jail.

[nijwnfi]

Like to hear from one of the attys about this, but I feel the vandal pulling a pistol makes it self defense. Homeowners weapon is concealed, vandal doesn't know it's there. Common sense does not always = law however.

[rwilson452]

I have found the best defense against vandals of this sort is a digital camera. Naturally, a firearm backup is always suggested.

[Atomic Dog]

Digi-Cam is a good idea. Personally I say it is justified. Our homeowner did not go out to start a fight, just to remove his property from harm's way. He did nothing to provoke an attack so it was simply self defence.

[Punisher]

I have found the best defense against vandals of this sort is a digital camera. Naturally, a firearm backup is always suggested.

that's awesome advice ! personally, i think that you would be justified being they pulled a gun on you.

[NineseveN]

The camera is a good idea, though it may or may not help. You're kinda' handcuffed in this situation if you're only protecting property...the law really doesn't allow for it here (for the most part).




There's always this gem of a thread to go back and look at for some fun...
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/general-2...situation.html

[Roscoe]

my 2c

"The Vandal pulls a gun from his belt, utters a series of profanities, and points the gun at our hero. "

At this point while you were clicking away maybe the so called Vandal decides he doesn't like his picture took and he busta cap in your head.

Someone points a weapon at me I'd shoot and deal with the consequences.

Any tree huggin DA could turn this into something, and hang your ass if the cards were against you.



We need a law like Texas has at this point

Texas Property law....

http://www.topix.com/city/pasadena-t...neighbors-home

[Montanya]

confronts the vandals, admonishing them to bypass his truck

This is the part that I had the sticky issue with. If you attempted to NOT confront them and just move the vehicle and THEY initiate the confrontation then I would think you could then use the pistol in defence of your life. If you are in a locked vehicle and they are banging on the door panels and denting up your car you are not in any danger of your life, just your car getting damaged. You rushing out to confront them is where you placed yourself in danger. If you lock the doors to the car and attempt to drive away and they shatter the window, all bets are off, they are now in proximity to do you bodily harm. Just my 2c.

The DA's argument is brief and simple....
Had you stayed inside and waited on the police to arrive and not went out to confont them destroying PROPERTY, you would have not had any confrontation that made you take a LIFE. The 500$ deductable is not worth the legal fees and possibly loosing my freedom if the judgement is against me.