Who can ask for your LTCF?

[acosenza2]

I have been reading the UFA to try to answer my question, but I simply can not find it. Who has the authority to ask for your LTCF, provided that you are carrying in a manner that requires an LTCF?

I ask this question because I have read posts about Game Conservation officers, Game Warden's, Park Ranger's, off duty LEO's and rent-a-cops asking to see LTCF's. Now obviously some of the OP's told the asking party to pound sand, but I am curious about whom can ask for an LTCF and who you can simply tell to stop harassing you and go on your way.

[lildobe]

18 Pa.C.S.A. § 6122. Proof of license and exception.

(a) General rule.--When carrying a firearm concealed on or
about one's person or in a vehicle, an individual licensed to
carry a firearm shall, upon lawful demand of a law enforcement
officer, produce the license for inspection. Failure to produce
such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary
hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

Basically, only to an actual LEO. WCO's count. Rent-a-Cops (even off-duty LEOs who are working for Whakenoff or whatever little security firm) don't count in my opinion.

[rwb1500]

Basically, only to an actual LEO. WCO's count. Rent-a-Cops (even off-duty LEOs who are working for Whakenoff or whatever little security firm) don't count in my opinion.

Bold... Lolz. But true.

[RHGregory3]

Technically, a park ranger has the same authority of a statey on any state road.. I wonder how that works into it :-/

[RHGregory3]

Lol it's wackenhut. Which is no better phonetically at all :-)

What were they thinking when they made this company

"uh, yeah - I think we should call it whack a nut so absolutely nobody shows these poor guys working for us any respect."


I'm sure it's named after something legitimate, but as a MALE how does that get past you?

[F16vipers]

Technically if you were carrying concealed and refused to show the security guard your LTCF he could probably ask you to leave and if you didn't you'd then be tresspassing and could be charged. Obviously this can't happen if you're walking down the street but it's likely any place that has a security guard is going to be private property.

For example, I know Sheetz' policy is that they allow open carry in their stores as long as you have a LTCF. So technically in their store you have to have a permit to OC. The store is Sheetz property so they can make whatever rules they want. If you don't like it they can ask you to leave and if you don't you'd be tresspassing...

[GunLawyer001]

Here are the stakes:
Anyone can ask for your LTCF, but only law enforcement officers have a right to see it, and only when you're carrying concealed or in a vehicle, and only if their demand is lawful.

So in theory, you don't have to produce the original license if you're not carrying concealed or in a vehicle. That's a fairly straightforward factual situation.

You also don't have to show it to a non-law-enforcement officer. That could get fuzzy around the margins, since the government hires a lot of folks with badges these days.

Finally, even if you're carrying concealed or in a vehicle, and even if it's a police officer asking, IN THEORY he still needs to make a "lawful demand". Unfortunately, nobody knows what that means, and your chances of getting your average judge to rule that a cop's demand was "unlawful" are poor, bordering on zero.

A cop can make demands, he can seize your gun and throw you in jail, and he's unlikely to ever pay a price for that if he's wrong.

You, on the other hand, risk arrest for violation of the UFA if you refuse to produce the original license upon lawful demand, and the final arbiter of the facts will be a judge who gets paid from the same sources as the cop who arrested you.

Philadelphia is an excellent example of the gap between "your legal rights" and "what you can really do in the face of men with guns and badges". I expect that in Germany in the 1930's, quite a few people who were familiar with the German legal code went to their deaths saying in disbelief, "you can't do that" (or something like "Sie werden nicht die Erlaubnis gehabt, um solch eine Sache zu tun").

Not to put too fine a point on it, Inter arma enim silent leges, which very loosely translates into "in the face of force, the law is silent". Knowing that cops have no legal grounds to shoot you is not the same as 6" of Lexan.

[F16vipers]

I don't know why everybody is so touchy about showing their LTCF? Honestly if anyone asked me to see mine I'd gladly show it. It's my way of saying 'Yea, I can legally carry this so screw off..."

I completely understand the OC argument against it but if your CC what's the problem?

[zackattack784]

I don't know why everybody is so touchy about showing their LTCF? Honestly if anyone asked me to see mine I'd gladly show it. It's my way of saying 'Yea, I can legally carry this so screw off..."

I completely understand the OC argument against it but if your CC what's the problem?

Do you really want to live in a society where, absent any RAS of a crime, a cop can come up to you and say "papers please?"

No thanks. Germany did it and I don't like how things turned out over there...

[F16vipers]

Do you really want to live in a society where, absent any RAS of a crime, a cop can come up to you and say "papers please?"

No thanks. Germany did it and I don't like how things turned out over there...

Well if you're CC without a permit it is a crime...

(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.