sbr engravers in pa

[Pa. Patriot]

I wouldn't want to be jumbling federal and state laws, regs, or interpretations when it comes to felonies. State law makes it a felony to deface the SN on a "firearm" (expansive definition), the concept that a title 1 gun ceases to exist when made into a title 2 configuration is confined purely to the realm of federal law. So it is quite relevant.

What jumbling?

I responded specifically to the state reg you posted.
If I have an NFA item ("firearm"), and remove a number that is NOT the serial number of the NFA firearm, how have I violated the Pa. section?

How can I destroy or deface a serial number of a title-1 firearm that does not exist?

[Pa. Patriot]

You're mixing concepts that only exist under federal law with the requirements of violating (or not) a state law. 6117 bars defacing a firearms SN, and refers to the definition in 6105, which is: any weapons which are designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.

Right, and the number being removed is simply not the serial number of the firearm.

The receiver that you bought, had engraved, and registered as an SBR does not change status under state law. It is always the same receiver with the original manufacturer's SN. The firearm contiues to exist until it is physically destroyed.

Please cite some authority for this very specific definition. You are pulling this "fact" from thin air as it's impossible for the gun to be two guns at once. Same as if I manufactured an SBR from non-title 1 parts. The state would recognize it as a firearm, title-II is irrelevant. A title-1 firearm is no longer a title-1 firearm and a title-II firearm, no matter what the state recognizes, the point is that it can not have TWO serial numbers and/or be two firearms at once. It's the same as it being destroyed. It is a different firearm, not the original.

There are no NFA items, Title I/Title II, etc. under 6117/6105. You have to forget everything you know about federal law when considering state law and vice versa.

And again, the firearm, while not recognized as title-II has a specific, valid serial number, a serial number that is not being removed. The old number is superfluous (my new favorite word )

[Noah_Zark]

You missed the flow of the thread.

We're arguing that the current policy allowing an SBR to be transported interstate without an approved 5320.20 and then be reassembled doesn't make sense and might well be changing, not that an SBR cannot temporarily change configuration . . .

The intent of my post above is to clarify the effect of changing barrels on an SBR or SBS' status as an NFA registered weapon SO THAT anyone joining the party in midstream doesn't take away any false impressions w.r.t. SBR/SBS status if longer barrels are fitted to the registered receiver.

As for your discussion, the fine points of the language of the CFR and statements made by ATFE can be scrutinized and argued; however the reality in practice of the ATFE NFA Branch is: Inserting a longer barrel on an SBR or SBS does NOT allow the registered owner to transport interstate without an approved 5320.20. The status of the registered SBR/SBS receiver does NOT change with a barrel change UNLESS the registered owner notifies NFA Branch that the SBR/SBS is to be removed from the register on account of installation of a barrel >16" for SBR, and >18" for SBS, and disposal of the shorter barrel that was installed on the ex-registered weapon in question.

IOW, the ONLY action to change the status of the registered SBR or SBS from NFA to Title I is written notification by the registered owner that the SBR or SBS is to be removed from the NFA Registry. Once that is done and acknowledged by NFA Branch in Martinsburg, WV, if the owner changes his or her mind and wants to make the receiver an SBR or SBS again, another Form 1 and $200 is required to do so.

We all know that what the CFR says and what ATFE interprets and does in some cases are very different things. It doesn't make it right, but they have all the hammers.

Noah

[GunLawyer001]

. . . the reality in practice of the ATFE NFA Branch is: Inserting a longer barrel on an SBR or SBS does NOT allow the registered owner to transport interstate without an approved 5320.20. The status of the registered SBR/SBS receiver does NOT change with a barrel change UNLESS the registered owner notifies NFA Branch that the SBR/SBS is to be removed from the register on account of installation of a barrel >16" for SBR, and >18" for SBS, and disposal of the shorter barrel that was installed on the ex-registered weapon in question. . . .

Not really. Others can chime in with links to the several letters, but the truth is that ATF has repeatedly and unequivocally stated that if the firearm isn't in SBR configuration when it crosses the state line, then no approval or notice is required.

I don't know offhand whether they specifically mentioned that you can't re-assemble it as an SBR in another state without filing the notice, but I assume this is true.

A temporary change means it doesn't fit the legal definition of an NFA firearm while the short barrel is either removed or replaced with a 16"+ barrel, and doesn't require permission to cross state lines. Notice of a permanent change is required to amend the Registry, bu that's a separate issue.

[Pa. Patriot]

Under state law it is.


I did, several times. 6117 and 6115(i). You are correct that it is only my interpretation, but I think it is well founded.




It can be as many different guns as there are applicable legal realms defining it.




The law bars the alteration of a manufacturer's SN. If you buy a Stag lower, the SN Stag engraved is the SN for the purposes of 6117 no matter what federal paperwork you fill out. If you can find a state law/definition that says otherwise (or if MDJSchool finds legislative history showing intent to tie 6117 to federal law/regs), I'd be inclined to concede the point, but 6117 seems clear unless you muddle it with inapplicable federal concepts.

Suffice to say I disagree. For the same reason I keep stating. You simply can not have two guns in one as you insist is the case. It's simply impossible. You will have to cite an authority for that theory for me to change my mind.

Removing a number, that is simply NOT, or no longer, the firearm's that no longer exists anyway(as a demill) serial number can not be a violation. It's an impossible stretch.

[Noah_Zark]

Not really. Others can chime in with links to the several letters, but the truth is that ATF has repeatedly and unequivocally stated that if the firearm isn't in SBR configuration when it crosses the state line, then no approval or notice is required.

I appreciate the feedback, however letters from the ATFE are sometimes worth only the paper upon which they are written. Example: I have a letter from the ATFE Firearms Technical Branch addressed to me personally telling me it is OK to engrave the barrel of my SBR. Shortly after I received that letter and had the barrel engraved, (18-20 mo) another letter pops up on the internet written by another person at the FTB to a different SBR owner that states the RECEIVER must be engraved. O-tay, now what?

ATFE opinions are just like anal orifices -- everyone at ATFE has one, and different things come to pass. Letters and FTB opinions notwithstanding, in my opinion it is far simpler, and well worth the peace of mind to send in a 5320.20 and wave that in front of an LEO in the destination state than a printout of a addressee-redacted letter from the internet. I've never had a 5320.20 rejected in 28 yrs of owning NFA weapons. But I stress that is my opinion.

Best,

Noah

[Pector55]

So 4 pages of good info but all I could find was Orion Arms and a place in Texas for engravings. LOL

I am ready to ship another item but I figured I would check for some locals first.

[Kramer]

I appreciate the feedback, however letters from the ATFE are sometimes worth only the paper upon which they are written. Example: I have a letter from the ATFE Firearms Technical Branch addressed to me personally telling me it is OK to engrave the barrel of my SBR. Shortly after I received that letter and had the barrel engraved, (18-20 mo) another letter pops up on the internet written by another person at the FTB to a different SBR owner that states the RECEIVER must be engraved. O-tay, now what?

ATFE opinions are just like anal orifices -- everyone at ATFE has one, and different things come to pass. Letters and FTB opinions notwithstanding, in my opinion it is far simpler, and well worth the peace of mind to send in a 5320.20 and wave that in front of an LEO in the destination state than a printout of a addressee-redacted letter from the internet. I've never had a 5320.20 rejected in 28 yrs of owning NFA weapons. But I stress that is my opinion.

Best,

Noah

That's right the letters are contradictory, but it clearly states in the guidelines that you can engrave all information on the receiver or barrel exept the serial number which must be on the receiver. 1/16" high characters, 0.003" deep.