sbr engravers in pa

[Nate7667]

I understand what you are saying, but im talking about:
droppping off package at UPS paying standard ground shipping on Monday and it coming back to me the following Monday or Tuesday.

Not really, there are guys now that are just being approved from forms submitted back in April-May spring. Who knows why, not filling out the form correctly, bounced check, got lost in the stack.

[Pa. Patriot]

Instruction (i) states:

i. If an existing firearm is being modified into an NFA firearm, enter the existing serial number of the firearm into item 4g and the name and address of the original manufacturer into item 4a. DO NOT ALTER OR MODIFY THE EXISTING SERIAL NUMBER. If the NFA firearm is being made from parts, your name and address are to be entered into 4a and a serial number you create is to be entered into item 4g.

I haven't compared this to the statute or regs, but the instructions seem pretty clear (except with respect to 4h). An AR-15 SBR using an existing firearm isn't being made from parts; you'd have to start with a billet and machine the lower receiver yourself to fall into that category.

You could ALSO add your own serial number in 4h, but that would just be superfluous markings, according to the instructions. "The" serial number should be the one on the Title 1 firearm that you're using.

I understand this is the source of confusion, but there is nothing (that I can find) codified to support this poorly written forms instructions. Thus my answer.

They would not be superfluous markings if the originals are removed. Seems to me this would not violate the ser# restrictions if done after approval and after engraving with the new markings. Since the old title-1 forearm does not exist, same as demilled, removing the old, superfluous ser# should not be a problem, no?

[GunLawyer001]

I understand this is the source of confusion, but there is nothing (that I can find) codified to support this poorly written forms instructions. Thus my answer.

They would not be superfluous markings if the originals are removed. Seems to me this would not violate the ser# restrictions if done after approval and after engraving with the new markings. Since the old title-1 forearm does not exist, same as demilled, removing the old, superfluous ser# should not be a problem, no?

We usually make a mistake when we try to apply sober logic to ATF regs, which in the context of NFA firearms have their origin in restricting all weapons that can be hidden by the 26" of cover provided by a standard man's overcoat circa 1934, except for handguns, which they assumed would be included but were not. All of the red tape over "concealable" SBR's and SBS's makes no sense at all if handguns are readily obtainable.

Anyway...

If you actually "destroyed" your host gun when you made it into an NFA weapon, then the argument that you could obliterate the serial number would make sense; once it's no longer a Title I or II firearm, you can do whatever you want with the completely unregulated pieces.

But that's not the case with an SBR; it can revert to a Title I firearm simply by removing the barrel or buttstock. We don't have any rule about "once an SBR, always an SBR", which means that you didn't really "destroy" the host gun.

I'd never remove or alter the SN from an intact receiver.

[Pa. Patriot]

If you actually "destroyed" your host gun when you made it into an NFA weapon, then the argument that you could obliterate the serial number would make sense; once it's no longer a Title I or II firearm, you can do whatever you want with the completely unregulated pieces.

"destroy" does not seem to have anything to do with it. Once you manufacture an NFA item, be it from a piece of metal or a title-1 firearm, it is an NFA item, no longer an uncontrolled piece of metal or an appropriately controlled title-1 weapon, respectively.

But that's not the case with an SBR; it can revert to a Title I firearm simply by removing the barrel or buttstock. We don't have any rule about "once an SBR, always an SBR", which means that you didn't really "destroy" the host gun.

Again, destroy is not the argument, I used it comparatively, in that the title-1 firearm no longer exists. I do not see how one can violate the law on removing a serial number on a gun that does not exist.
As for "reverting", I disagree. You are not "reverting" anything. Once an SBR is reg'd as an SBR, the rcvr remains a registered SBR. What about an SBR that was NOT manufactured from a title-1 firearm. What happens to that rcvr when the gun is later configured as a >26"/>16"bbl weapon? IMO, it is still an SBR, same as the title-1 born SBR.

Are you claiming that reconfiguring an SBR into a >26" AOL and >16" bbl weapon removes it's status as an SBR? I'd say that the receivers information on the NFA registry says 100% otherwise. It is an SBR no matter what the configuration because that is how the registration says.

The lack of an ATF ruling does not mean that an SBR is not always an SBR, it just means it has not been challenged as has machinegun receivers.

I'd never remove or alter the SN from an intact receiver.

And from your position, anticipating and protecting people from the out of control ATF, I don't blame you. My argument, while accademic, is also based on some personal experience in the topic as I've actually seen it done, (title-1 serial removed on a now NFA item) and obviously the form 1 was approved prior to doing it, which is what prompted me to investigate the code in the first place.

So I still do not see any prohibition on removing a title-1 serial # after said firearm is legally converted to an NFA item.

[GunLawyer001]

. . .

Are you claiming that reconfiguring an SBR into a >26" AOL and >16" bbl weapon removes it's status as an SBR? I'd say that the receivers information on the NFA registry says 100% otherwise. It is an SBR no matter what the configuration because that is how the registration says.

The lack of an ATF ruling does not mean that an SBR is not always an SBR, it just means it has not been challenged as has machinegun receivers.

. . .

There's a noisy contingent of folks, folks who seem fairly knowledgeable in NFA matters, who believe exactly that; that physically removing the short barrel (with or without installing a 16"+ bbl) removes the SBR from the purview of the NFA.

It's consistent with the Thompson-Center case, and ATF says that you needn't file a form if you take such a gun across state lines (whereas you know that you need to file if you take an MG or SBR or most other NFA firearms out of state.)

I don't believe that removing the barrel nullifies the registration, but I do believe that it changes the status back to Title I, at least temporarily; and it can revert permanently if you so notify ATF. This distinguishes an SBR conversion from MG conversions done prior to '86, or done today for post samples. Once an MG is made, the host semi is gone.

[Pa. Patriot]

There's a noisy contingent of folks, folks who seem fairly knowledgeable in NFA matters, who believe exactly that; that physically removing the short barrel (with or without installing a 16"+ bbl) removes the SBR from the purview of the NFA.

It's consistent with the Thompson-Center case, and ATF says that you needn't file a form if you take such a gun across state lines (whereas you know that you need to file if you take an MG or SBR or most other NFA firearms out of state.)

Ah, yes. I didn't consider the Thompson-center case....

I don't believe that removing the barrel nullifies the registration, but I do believe that it changes the status back to Title I, at least temporarily;

Ok, I agree, that due to the TC case this is how the ATF currently will see it. Now this should be true if one used a title-1 host or not, or renumbered a title-1 host. The same should apply. If you physically convert an SBR to non SBR config, that you manufactured without using a title-firearm. You have manufactured a title-one firearm (no tax required), which requires no markings of any kind. So it's existing SBR markings are there, but meaningless. I contend the same must be true of on made from a title-1 firearm that has had the original title-1 ser# removed. It's irrelevant since technically you are manufacturing a NEW title-1 firearm by removing the short bbl, same as above, and no markings are even required for that when the manufacturer is a non licensee. Not switching back to the prior title-1 firearm...

...and it can revert permanently if you so notify ATF. This distinguishes an SBR conversion from MG conversions done prior to '86, or done today for post samples. Once an MG is made, the host semi is gone.

Ah, correct, you can remove a SBR from the registry, Just like you used to be able to do with MG's. You're right, there is a difference in that regard. Now, if that means anything insofar as renumbering title-1 host guns, I dunno

[Pa. Patriot]

Moving a registered SBR receiver with a 16" barrel temporarily installed across state lines without an approved 5320.20 creates one of two situations: the person illegally moved and SBR interstate, or the person destroyed the SBR's continuity of existence, in which case reassembling it into an SBR should require another Form 1 and $200 tax.

I concur.

And I also believe if pressed the ATF will have to concur.

Back on topic, destroying an existing weapons SN is a felony under state law, so all of the discussion about federal law and regs would seem to be moot.

Which should be irrelevant to a title-1 firearm that does no longer exist.

[Kramer]

There's a noisy contingent of folks, folks who seem fairly knowledgeable in NFA matters, who believe exactly that; that physically removing the short barrel (with or without installing a 16"+ bbl) removes the SBR from the purview of the NFA.

I don't believe that removing the barrel nullifies the registration, but I do believe that it changes the status back to Title I, at least temporarily; and it can revert permanently if you so notify ATF.

Correct, it can not nullify registration, only status from Title II to Title I.

Just physically removing the barrel does not remove the firearm from the NFA registry, it will be there until you write the ATF and have it removed/deleted from the registry.

[Noah_Zark]

. . . a registered SBR receiver with a 16" barrel temporarily installed . . . destroyed the SBR's continuity of existence, in which case reassembling it into an SBR should require another Form 1 and $200 tax.

Deadpan & PA Patriot, with respect that's not true. Read the ATF FAQ again. Changing an SBR barrel to 16" or longer, or an SBS barrel to >18" does not change the status of the receiver as an SBR in the NFA Registry, and does not require another $200 manufacturing tax to reinstall the short barrel provided the registrant maintains control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

Also read another FAQ down the list: Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?

Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.


For example, I have an SBR AR with a 10.5" barrel installed. It is perfectly lawful for me to remove the 10.5" barrel and install a 20" barrel if I so desire, as long as I have the 10.5" barrel to reinstall at some point in future. without having to pay another $200. Any SBR or SBS must be readily configurable by the registered owner in accordance with the barrel length on the Form 1 upon which it was originally registered, or the Form 4 it was transferred on.

Noah

[Pa. Patriot]

Deadpan & PA Patriot, with respect that's not true. Read the ATF FAQ again. Changing an SBR barrel to 16" or longer, or an SBS barrel to >18" does not change the status of the receiver as an SBR in the NFA Registry, and does not require another $200 manufacturing tax to reinstall the short barrel provided the registrant maintains control over the parts necessary to reconfigure the firearm as a SBR or SBS.

Also read another FAQ down the list: Q: May the short barrel on an SBR or SBS be replaced with a long barrel for hunting or other purposes, with the intent of replacing the short barrel?

Yes, and you will not be required to again register the firearm before replacing the short barrel. ATF recommends written notification to the NFA Branch when a firearm’s configuration is permanently changed or removed from the purview of the NFA.


For example, I have an SBR AR with a 10.5" barrel installed. It is perfectly lawful for me to remove the 10.5" barrel and install a 20" barrel if I so desire, as long as I have the 10.5" barrel to reinstall at some point in future. without having to pay another $200. Any SBR or SBS must be readily configurable by the registered owner in accordance with the barrel length on the Form 1 upon which it was originally registered, or the Form 4 it was transferred on.

Noah

Yes, yes, I agree. What I was saying that in order for the old title-1 serial number to be valid, the above would have to NOT be true. IOW, in order for the NFA item host gun serial number to be a valid serial number, again, as in when adding 16"+ bbl, the gun would no longer be an NFA item. Which we know (as ayou posted above) to NOT be true. The NFA item (rcvr) is an NFA item, no matter the current config. Only way to convert it to a non-NFA item is to have it removed from the registry.