Tactical Scope Needed (Am I missing any?)

[Andrew17019]

Check out some of the Bushnell scopes, they have come a long way and are making some great glass these days. I have a Vortex and the glass is great, although the construction is a little cheap feeling. You might also check out the Nikon M223 series, which have been good to me as well.

[bricktop]

Also, I've heard good things about the SWFA SS scopes, and intend to buy one in the near future.

http://swfa.com/SWFA-SS-Scopes-C1719.aspx

[arrrrgh15]

....i just think that with a 16" barrel (if that's what it is), you'll never fully utilize a higher magnification scope. With the collapsable stock and 16 in barrel, that rifle screams for a "mid range" type scope that's a little more compact but has the features needed to make precise hits within it's capabilities. He'll I'd put it in a QD mount as well and with the money you save, toss on some good back up iron sights.

It would be a very handy rifle indeed.

Good luck.

R15

[Andrew17019]

Recommendation goes to the LaRue QD mounts for all scope options, btw.

[sjohn26]

I'll give the benefit of doubt and assume you have no malice. I do think by me posting a thread on the topic it is implied that I see a need to have an optic on this level.

If you have any other options that I have missed that would be great..

No malice intended.............and a concise view is posted above that captured my intent.

I too dream of upper-end equipment - but budget obligations limit me to the best performance/cost ratio hence my comments.

[svltrack]

Well you all hit on the thoughts going through my head up until this point. Nice to be anticipated.. Thanks

The basic premise is to get it and see what the potential of the AR10 really is (I had to search high & low for a match grade upper in 16" from Armalite). Then to eventually graduate this scope to a bolt action setup in mid-long range.

I totally agree that the .308 has a short ceiling in the LR shooting catagory. So I look at this as a bit of fun, a lot of learning in LR shooting & also an investment. To me $2k for all of this is a value in the optics catagory. Also that old diatribe.. spend once & cry one comes to mind.

Tomcat asked about preference.. yes I do have specific preferences:

Mil/Mil
Turret Focus
Not too picky on the reticule, TMR if I could choose
No need to go any larger than 44 on the objective
First Focal Plane

I will not pretend that I am an expert on this at all. I HAVE however already spent $1500+ on a CQB optic this year and have also gone "el cheapo" on a couple of other scope's to get an idea and feel for what I like. I don't want to buy something that I will look back on and wish I had gone one other step up on.. A high quality unit with top-notch glass is what I want.



I found another maker nobody has mentioned:

http://www.deon.co.jp/march/menu2_5.htm

The 2.5-25x42 seems to fit my needs exactly and be just a touch over budget at around $2130.

[arrrrgh15]

I think it's "buy once, cry once".

Deon. Never heard of them. At $2100 they better be making a damned good scope, and if they are, I figured I'd have seen one show up at a match by now. I think event the "counter sniper" scopes had a few models in the $1400 catagory.

If the intent is to swap this out at a later date, then go with a full size scope. But I still think a mid range would be pretty slick on a shorter barreled, collapsable stock AR10.

Your "mil/mil" requirement could knock a lot of potential players out of contention, leaving a few scope manufacturers to choose from. I know Leupold has not yet developed a mil/mil scope and put it out on the market yet. At least not since the last time I checked.

I think in terms of quality, reliability, and fully proofed in the field, you'll narrow your selection to a few companies (NF, US Optics, etc...)

[Tomcat088]

I think it's "buy once, cry once".

Deon. Never heard of them. At $2100 they better be making a damned good scope, and if they are, I figured I'd have seen one show up at a match by now. I think event the "counter sniper" scopes had a few models in the $1400 catagory.

If the intent is to swap this out at a later date, then go with a full size scope. But I still think a mid range would be pretty slick on a shorter barreled, collapsable stock AR10.

Your "mil/mil" requirement could knock a lot of potential players out of contention, leaving a few scope manufacturers to choose from. I know Leupold has not yet developed a mil/mil scope and put it out on the market yet. At least not since the last time I checked.

I think in terms of quality, reliability, and fully proofed in the field, you'll narrow your selection to a few companies (NF, US Optics, etc...)

I'm with R-15 on this one. I've never heard of Deon rifle scopes, and I WOULDN'T TOUCH ONE. Well, maybe if one was given to me, but I dang sure wouldn't pay for one, especially not $2100. As R-15 has stated, there are some Counter Sniper scopes that are in the $1,400 range, and hardly anybody touches those either. To the OP, there's a reason that lots of people don't make 2.5-25x scopes, and there's a reason that you don't see other high end makers doing it. It's an impressive magnification ratio, but I don't believe that they can keep the optical clarity as good as they claim. It takes a lot of lenses to do that right, which increases the size and weight of the scope, increases your chances for mechanical failure, and because skimping on quality on any one of those many lenses will have drastic effect on clarity. Just don't do it, please, I'm asking you for your own good. 2.5-25x looks good and cool on paper, in the field with a tactical rifle and even a midrange rifle, it's useless.

I'm also with R-15 that if the intent is to swap out the scope at a later date, go with a "full size" scope, and not a "mid range" scope. Your Mil/Mil requirements knocks most players out of the game, and the FFP knocks the majority of other players out of the game. Your budget, while not even close to "small", knocks pretty much everybody out of the game. Have no fear though, there are just a few options. For the price, you just aren't going to be able to find a Nightforce, USO, or other top brand manufacturer with the specs that you want.

Nightforce only offers one FFP Mil/Mil scope, that's the NXS F1 3.5-15x. It's a nice rugger scope built on a 30mm tube, good glass (not the greatest of all the top tier manufacturers), illuminated reticle, side focus, and it has a zero stop. They're great scopes even though it's not quite as high of magnification as what you wanted. It also has a 50mm objective, which is pretty much going to be the standard for almost EVERY scope you consider in the price range we're talking about. USO offers a 44mm option on a few of their scopes, but all the models spec'ed to the way you want them aren't going to be even close to the price range. So pretty much if you want a truly high end optic, you're probably going to have to go with a 50mm objective. The Nightforce NXS F1 costs $2,300 though, and then you still have to get some rings for it. So for appropriate rings and this scope, that puts it around $2,500 which I would say is out of the range you were looking at. http://nightforceoptics.com/nightfor...-15x50_f1.html

There's another possible rifle scope that fits the bill pretty well, but will be slightly out of your price range after buying rings. It's a newer scope that as far as I know hasn't been "fielded", but it has held up well. The company that makes these scopes also has EXCELLENT customer service. One member on this forum has one of these scopes, and maybe you can get him to chime in a bit later about his scope, or with his permission I'll post up some photos of and through that scope that he's sent me. The scope is a Vortex Razor HD 5-20x50mm. It's FFP, Mil/Mil, illuminated reticle, side focus, and zero stop. Something interesting about going this option is that you'd also have the option of one of the "Christmas Tree" reticles, which lots of people like, and if you'd like to look at that option, it's their EBR-2 option. If you prefer something like a TMR, you would look at the EBR-3. It's tube spec is slightly out of what you want because it's made on a 35mm tube. Lots of guys don't like 35mm tubes because it means you have to mount the scope higher from the bore, which can effect your cheek weld, and it limits your ring choices. There are still some high quality manufacturers of 35mm rings, so it's not the end of the world, and with the larger tube you also get more internal adjustment. Pretty much for all the features, glass quality and ruggedness, it's hard to beat the price on this optic. It's $1,999.99 for the scope, and then you'd also be spending more for the rings. If you're interested in this scope, Liberty Optics carries them and they are GREAT to deal with. Here's the scope so that you can look at it and the specs http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...2-mrad-reticle . There's also been a review and video by Lowlight from Snipershide if you'd like to look at that here http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...1387446&page=1 .

It's been a little bit since R-15 looked at Leupold scopes ;-), just giving you heck buddy, lol. They have recently come up with Mil/Mil options, although they don't list them on their website. They are the new "M5" turrets, and are .1 mil clicks. They have not released many of these scopes, but they ARE out there and procurable. Of all the "field tested" scopes, since these are of the Mark 4 line, they're the most "tested" in your price range. You'll want to look into the Leupold Mark 4 M5 FFP. They come in the magnification range of 4.5-14x, 6.5-20x, 8.5-25x. I'm not sure which one you prefer, it sounds like the 6.5-20 might fit your needs a little better since the 4.5-14x is a little lower magnification than you wanted, and the low end of the 8.5-25x might not give you enough to back off. The scopes come with a Gen 1 Mil-dot reticle, or TMR that is illuminated; I'd stick with the TMR if I was you. They're on par with the rest of the Mark 4 line. They have pretty good glass although not quite as good as the NF scopes. So basically they're Mil/Mil, FFP, illuminated TMR reticle, side focus, but they do NOT have a zero stop. Something else lots of guys aren't going to like is that it only "sort of" has turn counters, and it's only 5 mils per turn, which isn't much. Makes since you have to make so many turns to go the full range of mils, it could be possible to get lost without counters or a zero stop. The scope also has a 50mm objective, just like most of the others. Lots of people have been pretty disappointed with the quality control and how it's slipping the past couple of years with Leupold, and their LACK of innovation. They're still behind on the times, but they are pretty tried and they're pretty rugged. Leupolds are known to take quite a bit more dives than some of the higher end scopes like NF, USO, etc, but they do have good customer service, so if you can stand the down time, they're a good option. They're right in your price range and the scope you'll probably look the hardest at. They're $1,700 and then you still need your rings. Here's a link for the 6.5-20x model, and a link on the hide where Mike first mentions them. http://www.cstactical.com/MARK-4-LR/....html?vmcchk=1 and here's the link on the hide http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubb...Number=2115917 .

It pretty much looks like if you're looking for a "cheaper" (not really) scope from the high end scopes, you'll be looking at the Vortex Razor HD, if you're willing to pay a little more than your budget; or you'll be looking at the Leupold Mark 4's with M5 turrets. There is a couple of other alternatives also, some that are soon to arrive and some that are already around. You could always consider a "mid price range" scope that has most of the features that you want. In most of them, the main thing you'll be giving up is the big name brands and the higher glass quality. Some people just starting out but with your particular requirements will run something like a Falcon Menace 4-14x44 FFP. They're not very expensive, and have most of the features that guys want. They tend to dial pretty consistently and the reticles are accurate, so that's one of your main concerns. They don't have turret counters, and the glass isn't the best, but "useable". More recently some new options that are bordering on "cheaper high end" scopes are coming into the market. Bushnell released some Bushnell Elite 4200 FFP's. They are mil/mil and come in 4-12x44mm and in 6-25x50mm. They have Bushnell Elite 4200 glass in them, so they're pretty good to most people's eyes in terms of optical quality. They have shown to dial consistently and are pretty rugged. The scopes are illuminated reticles, but my main gripe about them is they're only a gen 1 mil-dot reticle. If they had something different and more "updated", I would have looked a lot harder at them. The Bushnell Elite scopes have always lacked just a little bit in travel (particularly elevation), so you would need a 20 MOA base for SURE; which you will most likely need anyway if you want to go longer ranges with your current rig. The other thing I don't like about the scope is that there aren't turn counters on the turrets and the whole scope is relatively "plain". They aren't bad though for $790, and lots of guys have been looking at them. The other scope that isn't in production yet because they wanted to rework the turrets to have more positive clicks. The scope is the Vortex Viper PST. They come with TONS of options, as a matter of fact, all the ones that you've been looking at in higher end scopes. They come in 4-16x50mm and 6-24x50mm, FFP, with great illuminated reticles similar to a TMR. The scope has turn counters and zero stops. The glass quality on the PST is supposed to be just below the Leupold Mark 4, and the through the scope pictures I saw, while it's hard to tell, seem to support this. They're going to be around the $850-900, although you probably won't be able to get ahold of one until February or March. This is a guess as they put off their release and haven't quite told everybody when they're coming out, but have thrown out quite a few hints. The first orders are to fill the preproduction orders, and then we'll start seeing more of them. This is the particular scope that I'm waiting on and will be purchasing at least one of to check out the features for the dollar. http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/...eticle/reticle

I'm not sure which way you'd like to go, or what kind of timeline you're running. If you do want to spend around $2,000-2,200, the Vortex Razor and Leupold Mark 4 with M5 turrets will probably be your ticket. If you are a bit iffy about spending that much money and what your "needs" are, some of the mid range scopes may fit your budget and still fulfill all your needs and most of your "wants". It'll depend on if you want a field tested scope, want to buy one "right now", etc. Either way, for the features, if you can wait, the Vortex PST is what lots of us are watching closely and will be purchasing fairly soon. Best of luck to you, and hope these recommendations and ideas have given you a bit more to work with.

[svltrack]

Well after a couple of months I am back on the search for the scope. (decided a PVS-14 needed to come first..)

The more I think/read on this, the mid-range idea (up to 12x max) seems to make more sense. It compliments the .308 range well and keeps the size/weight to a minimum which is really better for a battle style rifle.

So I have narrowed it down to three options. Leupold, NF and IOR. Of these three options I am leaning towards the NF. The glass on the NF is just as good as the IOR from what I have read and a bit better than the Leupold. Also from research it seems that more "operators" run the NF than any other brand. I like the fact that they are made in the USA and not a huge company. This tells me that each scope/customer really gets the personal touch and if something were to come up they would fix it. Also, NF has their focus on tactical/LR scopes.

Their 32mm in MIL/MIL w/ zero stops really offers versatility and unless someone has a similar better recommendation I'll be taking the plunge shortly..

[animalmother85]

Well after a couple of months I am back on the search for the scope. (decided a PVS-14 needed to come first..)

The more I think/read on this, the mid-range idea (up to 12x max) seems to make more sense. It compliments the .308 range well and keeps the size/weight to a minimum which is really better for a battle style rifle.

So I have narrowed it down to three options. Leupold, NF and IOR. Of these three options I am leaning towards the NF. The glass on the NF is just as good as the IOR from what I have read and a bit better than the Leupold. Also from research it seems that more "operators" run the NF than any other brand. I like the fact that they are made in the USA and not a huge company. This tells me that each scope/customer really gets the personal touch and if something were to come up they would fix it. Also, NF has their focus on tactical/LR scopes.

Their 32mm in MIL/MIL w/ zero stops really offers versatility and unless someone has a similar better recommendation I'll be taking the plunge shortly..

Operators? Like the person you talk to when you dial 411? Or someone that drives a backhoe?

Not all NF scopes are made in the US. Don't let that get you down though, even their SFP scopes that are made in Japan are pretty swell (better then leupolds by leaps and bounds).