I'm the "man with a gun"

[Franky4Fingers]

I see what all you guys are saying. I'm not saying you can't do what your doing, because you can. That's your right. But its also my right to say I don't like it and I think its a dick move. That's how my thought process works. If you wanna give a cop shit, go head. I won't. Why? Because its just not how I operate.

Like AnimalMother also said, you have to pick and choose your battles and thats my thoughts exactly. If I went to my door and cop was standing there and he tries to shove me aside and get in my house without ID'ing himself, giving purpose to his visit, no warrant....you better believe I'm gonna give him shit.

But if I'm out in public and they wanna check my permit or my car...whatever. The laws in PA are so ambiguous as to when its legal for a cop to do something or not based on their judgment and immunities you'd have a tough time fighting it. Like I said, I've lost my personal humility on checking me out, if you want to, go ahead. And depending on the situation, the cop, conversation, as I'm showing him my license, I might throw in there "you know you don't need a license to OC in PA" You still get your point across but your being polite and complying. Then, later, if you feel the encounter went bad you call/write the police chief, state and US congressman, local government, etc. If that doesn't work for you, tough shit. As far as I see it, the government can and will do what it wants. It can and will break its own rules. its done it a million times in the past, and will do so in the future. I just count my blessings I guess. Until the people start some revolution that's the way its going to stay. How many times have cops down unbelievable things or other government institutions, like that fire company in Tennessee that let the guys house burn down. The whole nation was in an uproar over that. Do you think anything got done about that? No way. Just like a Pennsylvania business owner. Most of them are complete dicks, yet stay in business. Thats both an amazement and an insult to human kind. The way I see it is they have something I want, I can't go somewhere else, that means I, OWE THEM. Not the other way around like it should be. I just accept it.

You don't like my view, ...don't care. Your entitled to your view just as much as I am mine. Difference is, I'll be happier in life.

[zackattack784]

I see what all you guys are saying. I'm not saying you can't do what your doing, because you can. That's your right. But its also my right to say I don't like it and I think its a dick move. That's how my thought process works. If you wanna give a cop shit, go head. I won't. Why? Because its just not how I operate.

I don't think anyone of us are saying you need to exercise your rights. Just check my posts in this thread alone. I haven't criticized the OP for his decision and have even stated if you wish to comply with a LEO's requests (illegal or not) that's your prerogative. I'm simply asserting that exercising your rights is not giving a cop "shit." That's my opinion on the matter and you're certainly entitled to your own opinion.

Like AnimalMother also said, you have to pick and choose your battles and thats my thoughts exactly. If I went to my door and cop was standing there and he tries to shove me aside and get in my house without ID'ing himself, giving purpose to his visit, no warrant....you better believe I'm gonna give him shit.

But if I'm out in public and they wanna check my permit or my car...whatever.

Woah, woah. You may wanna think twice before giving a cop permission to check your car. Checking your license is one thing, checking your car is an entirely different beast.

The laws in PA are so ambiguous as to when its legal for a cop to do something or not based on their judgment and immunities you'd have a tough time fighting it. Like I said, I've lost my personal humility on checking me out, if you want to, go ahead. And depending on the situation, the cop, conversation, as I'm showing him my license, I might throw in there "you know you don't need a license to OC in PA" You still get your point across but your being polite and complying. Then, later, if you feel the encounter went bad you call/write the police chief, state and US congressman, local government, etc. If that doesn't work for you, tough shit. As far as I see it, the government can and will do what it wants. It can and will break its own rules. its done it a million times in the past, and will do so in the future. I just count my blessings I guess. Until the people start some revolution that's the way its going to stay. How many times have cops down unbelievable things or other government institutions, like that fire company in Tennessee that let the guys house burn down. The whole nation was in an uproar over that. Do you think anything got done about that? No way. Just like a Pennsylvania business owner. Most of them are complete dicks, yet stay in business. Thats both an amazement and an insult to human kind. The way I see it is they have something I want, I can't go somewhere else, that means I, OWE THEM. Not the other way around like it should be. I just accept it.

You don't like my view, ...don't care. Your entitled to your view just as much as I am mine. Difference is, I'll be happier in life.

Based on what? That's a little bit of a low blow don't you think? I've kept things friendly, mature, and civil, let's keep it that way.

[animalmother85]

What is the legality of an officer asking you for some identification after responding to a call like this(the no-shit real legality)? I imagine after being denied to see a permit to carry (considering what we've gone over, it not being a necessary factor for open carrying) that officer would then ask for some form of legal identification, i.e. drivers license?

I am glad that people have been proactive about this and have already contacted the necessary representatives.

[IronSight]

What is the legality of an officer asking you for some identification after responding to a call like this(the no-shit real legality)? I imagine after being denied to see a permit to carry (considering what we've gone over, it not being a necessary factor for open carrying) that officer would then ask for some form of legal identification, i.e. drivers license?

I am glad that people have been proactive about this and have already contacted the necessary representatives.

I'm not a lawyer, so I express my opinions solely based on my understandings of cases I've read.

The legal standards when initiating a detention after responding to 911 calls are fairly clear, and set out in case law, based on both the validity of the call (and reliability of the caller), and the encounter when the police arrive. When a new point of ambiguity arises, such as with searches incident to arrests, new case law ends up being made.

In general, however, the Terry standard applies in that the Police need to witness and/or in some other way establish reasonable suspicion of CRIMINAL activity. This is why the MPOETC legal update states:

Question #3- What can police legally do when they observe a person engaging in
open carry?
Answer #3- In most cases, the police cannot engage the person in anything other
than a mere encounter. Unless the person engaged in lawful open carry is in
violation of a specific State or Federal firearm prohibition or is carrying in a
restricted area (For example: prohibitions contained in §6105, possession by a
minor §6110.1, possession on school property §912, possession in a court
facility §913, carrying in Philadelphia §6108, carrying in a vehicle, carrying
during a declared state of emergency §6107), the officer would not have specific
reasonable suspicion of criminal activity merely based on observing a person
engaged in open carry. Therefore, a stop and frisk or any other seizure would
not be legally justified.

In a mere encounter a citizen simply does not have to engage the police in conversation, show any ID of any kind, or respond to the officer in any way, because in a mere encounter a citizen is not being detained and is free to leave at any time he/she chooses.

So, as far as I see it, the "no-shit real legality" is that if a citizen isn't being detained it doesn't matter what kind of ID is asked for, because it doesn't need to be provided.

A detention, on the other hand, is a whole different ball game, and if a citizen is subjected to an illegal one there's not much he/she can do except comply without consenting and seek justice through the courts after-the-fact.

[F16vipers]

Like AnimalMother also said, you have to pick and choose your battles and thats my thoughts exactly. If I went to my door and cop was standing there and he tries to shove me aside and get in my house without ID'ing himself, giving purpose to his visit, no warrant....you better believe I'm gonna give him shit.

But if I'm out in public and they wanna check my permit or my car...whatever. The laws in PA are so ambiguous as to when its legal for a cop to do something or not based on their judgment and immunities you'd have a tough time fighting it. Like I said, I've lost my personal humility on checking me out, if you want to, go ahead. And depending on the situation, the cop, conversation, as I'm showing him my license, I might throw in there "you know you don't need a license to OC in PA" You still get your point across but your being polite and complying. Then, later, if you feel the encounter went bad you call/write the police chief, state and US congressman, local government, etc. If that doesn't work for you, tough shit. As far as I see it, the government can and will do what it wants. It can and will break its own rules. its done it a million times in the past, and will do so in the future. I just count my blessings I guess. Until the people start some revolution that's the way its going to stay. How many times have cops down unbelievable things or other government institutions, like that fire company in Tennessee that let the guys house burn down. The whole nation was in an uproar over that. Do you think anything got done about that? No way. Just like a Pennsylvania business owner. Most of them are complete dicks, yet stay in business. Thats both an amazement and an insult to human kind. The way I see it is they have something I want, I can't go somewhere else, that means I, OWE THEM. Not the other way around like it should be. I just accept it.

I agree with Franky. Every situation is different. Anytime you get into a confrontation with the police, regardless of which party starts it, you're going to come out with the short stick. Sure, you can complain and sue and blah blah but who really has time for that shit in the real world? Why turn a questionable situation into a bad one? Why make a scene?

[Franky4Fingers]

Woah, woah. You may wanna think twice before giving a cop permission to check your car. Checking your license is one thing, checking your car is an entirely different beast.

I meant like checking the registration/inspection.

Based on what? That's a little bit of a low blow don't you think? I've kept things friendly, mature, and civil, let's keep it that way.

Based on how a lot of people on this forum and "gun people" in general go around with a chip on their shoulder being pissed off at the cops before they even did anything. All of my encounters with police in my city have honestly been quite well. That goes for the surrounding area. A lot of them seem quite genuine and all around nice people. I was at the gun shop last week and they were LOADED with employees and I was standing there 15 minutes waiting for ammo, a 30 second transaction and I'm gone. And no one even acknowledged me because they were all there having a dick stroking contest with eachother explaining to each other how people in wal mart can't kick you out for carrying and they were kicked out the other day and blah blah blah. I walked out of the place....and where did I go for my ammo? ........ Wal Mart. I got served within 20 seconds of being at the ammo counter. East Coast Gun Sales can piss off.

That's a little bit of a low blow don't you think? I've kept things friendly, mature, and civil, let's keep it that way.

that wasn't meant as low blow of any means, you took it the wrong way.

[andrewjs18]

I usually wait to do that until someone complains about the mess they ended up in, even after "cooperating".

How (or IF) to respond to such an inquiry is a personal choice. Not the way I would have handled it, but so what? It didn't happen to me.

agreed.

(10 char)

[B2Luv2Hunt]

Usually, one tends to catch more flies with honey then vinegar...

This is probably true. But if you really want flies, use a big pile of shit.

[MDJschool]

I see what all you guys are saying. I'm not saying you can't do what your doing, because you can. That's your right. But its also my right to say I don't like it and I think its a dick move. That's how my thought process works. If you wanna give a cop shit, go head. I won't. Why? Because its just not how I operate.
[..]
You don't like my view, ...don't care. Your entitled to your view just as much as I am mine. Difference is, I'll be happier in life.

Franky4Fingers is the kind of person who says this now but will bitch about what he could have done when the world overwhelms him. That kind of thinking happens to the best of us, I suppose, but it is truly tragic.

So, Franky4Fingers, how many types of machines, which are not brand new, IMPROVE through operation? How many of those machines will get better if you don't perform maintenance on them whatsoever? If a fast, heavily grinding gear gets a chip or a burr in the course of that operation, do you agree that it might tend to speed up the destruction of the rest of the fine components?

A failure to maintain our government, which here unfortunately includes regular exercise of our rights and notifying police of the law, means the machine will continue to run absence that maintenance and degrade at a rate more swift. Here, the degradation is tyranny. You think that you can avoid an immediate situation or 'make a friend' by doing no maintenance, when the truth is you let police believe what they did was right, even when it wasn't. They will believe that either out of ignorance, or that they can get away with it next time because this current guy acquiesced.

When you have officers doing that in droves, it creates a culture which then begins to insist upon itself. That's when tyrannical windfall occurs and the abuses are no longer linear but exponential.

You will hate yourself for what you didn't do while you could have done it, even when it was no more than a proper maintenance schedule.

[HbgHKFan]

It is amazing what happens when you don't huff , puff and blow snot bubbles while stomping your feet.

Yeah, really. I've read several stories on here about guys who have had the same scenario out in a public store. It always ended up with them giving the police trouble, yelling their rights, being disarmed, leaving the store and declaring they'll never shop there again. It's all how you act. Yes there are LEO's out there who will make it a bad experience regardless, but your attitude makes a difference.