Checkmating RAS against Phila Police

[bill gray]

I am a former Philadelphian and I read about the abuses that OCers run into there. I also just posted a similar remark at the Opencarry.com site.
Question:What would happen if OCers started putting a reduced size, laminated copy of their LTCF on their holsters plus a full size, laminated, (notarized?) copy on a chain around their necks? Could the PPD justify taking an OCer at gunpoint, disarming and cuffing them with evidence of legal carry staring them in the face?? They might/would do it per the memo anyway the first few times but how would that play out in the courts? The OCers would have to verbally notify the PPD what the documents are and ask/demand that they examine them before violating their rights. They would have to possess the original on their person to back up the copies. I have an image of a photographer or reporter with a PRESS card in their hat band. (Yeah, it is a black and white image from an old movie.)

[domagala]

Good idea...but they wouldnt care even if you walked around wearing your LTCF on a sandwich board. Either they "dont care to know" that you can OC with a LTCF, or they just want to hassle you to try to find something else that they can arrest you for.

[bill gray]

I agree that what you describe is what will happen at first. The PPD Commissioner's memo on Open Carry of 9-22 starts out by saying "no police officer can know" who has a LTCF. That is the RAS for the stop since a LTCF is required for the OC to be legal in Phila. But if the evidence to show that no crime is being committed is right out in the open, how will that play out in the courts?? Will the PPD be spanked in court over the lack of RAS? I think so. How many times will they be spanked before they wise up?? If people who OC anyway were to start doing this, I think that it would have an effect over time. As things are now, the Commish is right. An officer who sees a gun cannot know that this is a lawful act of OC. But if he sees a copy of two of a document openly displayed then that changes. How does an officer know that a motor vehicle is licenced and inspected? The proof is openly displayed and no stop is needed to verify it. Should display of the LTCF be required in Phila? Absolutely not. But it would serve to change the climate and establish that open carriers are law abiding folks.

[phillykev]

Will the PPD be spanked in court over the lack of RAS? I think so.

Are you familiar with Philly judges?

How many times will they be spanked before they wise up??

Infinitely. It doesn't cost them anything personally. And voters in Philly don't care how much money is wasted fighting for gun control.

[chivvalry]

The below is a couple of excerpts from the M.P.O.E.T.C. Mandatory In-Service Training Legal Update Course 09-201 posted elsewhere on this site... I would recommend carrying it around if you plan to OC in Philly... maybe anywhere in PA.


Question #3- What can police legally do when they observe a person engaging in open carry?

Answer #3- In most cases, the police cannot engage the person in anything other than a mere encounter. Unless the person engaged in lawful open carry is in violation of a specific State or Federal firearm prohibition or is carrying in a restricted area (For example: prohibitions contained in §6105, possession by a minor §6110.1, possession on school property §912, possession in a court facility §913, carrying in Philadelphia §6108, carrying in a vehicle, carrying during a declared state of emergency §6107), the officer would not have specific reasonable suspicion of criminal activity merely based on observing a person engaged in open carry. Therefore, a stop and frisk or any other seizure would not be legally justified.


If an officer can develop reasonable suspicion that criminal activity is afoot, by a person engaged in open carry, then the temporary seizure of the person and confiscation of the firearm would be justified, because the person is known to be armed and dangerous based on the suspected criminal activity and visible possession of a firearm. A further frisk would also be warranted to ensure the person was not in possession of any other weapons. If the officer’s investigatory detention leads to probable cause, then the person may be placed under arrest for the crime that has been committed. However, if the officer’s suspicion is allayed then any seized firearms must be returned to the citizen and the citizen must be released from the investigatory detention. A firearm may be seized from a person who the officer knows to be prohibited from possessing a firearm under State or Federal law.
Officers should be aware that citizens may become alarmed or concerned when they witness persons engaged in open carry. This may be due in part to individual sensibilities regarding firearms and the fact that persons engaged in open carry are infrequently encountered in Pennsylvania. However, a citizen’s alarm or concern does not alone negatively impact the rights of a person engaging in the lawful open carrying of a firearm. Officers receiving citizen reports of a “man with a gun” would be prudent to respond to determine the nature of the report. However, the rights of any person engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm must be carefully considered when interacting with such person. Persons engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm are not subject to seizure of their person or property based solely on the fact that they are engaging in open carry, nor may theybe required to produce identification or other documents. A person who is
engaging in open carry in Philadelphia or in an area of declared emergency may be required to produce a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm or establish an exemption. Of course, a person engaged in the open carrying of a firearm may engage in violations of other laws or handle the firearm in an inappropriate manner which could constitute offenses such as: disorderly conduct, reckless endangerment, simple assault by physical menace, etc. However, merely engaging in the open carrying of a firearm would not necessarily constitute such an offense.

[bill gray]

Thank you for posting the Statewide police training guide re OCing. I think I can show that the assumptions used in Phila are vulnerable to challange by openly displaying copies of the LTCF. Note that the mentions of OC being RAS for a stop in Phila depend on the perception that the OCer is armed AND dangerous. Eliminate or reduce the perception of being dangerous and the RAS dissapears. The Phila Commish's memo re OC says (paraphrasing) "no officer can know if the OCer has the LTCF needed to legalize what is otherwise an illegal act." But a copy of the LTCF on the holster and around the neck of the OCer would serve to offset that doubt. Cops do not stop known undercover officers, plainclothes officers or off-duty officers because they are not considered dangerous. Some people carry a rabbit's foot for luck. Can't hurt right? If someone is going to OC anyway they should consider if they are any worse off in an encounter with the PPD if they are using this tactic.

[chivvalry]

"Persons engaged in the lawful open carrying of a firearm are not subject to seizure of their person or property based solely on the fact that they are engaging in open carry, nor may they be required to produce identification or other documents.

A person who is engaging in open carry in Philadelphia or in an area of declared emergency may be required to produce a valid and lawfully issued license to carry a firearm or establish an exemption."

Based on the second sentence above I would say that having your LTCF readily available to present upon demand while OC'ing in Philly is an excellent idea. Hanging it around your neck, clipping it to your belt in a badge holder, whatever, would probably make that easier. I do NOT however think that it will prevent you from being accosted in the first place. Also, please ensure you note that a copy of your LTCF is not likely to be sufficient. The original will likely be required.

[ChamberedRound]

Thank you for posting the Statewide police training guide re OCing. I think I can show that the assumptions used in Phila are vulnerable to challange by openly displaying copies of the LTCF. Note that the mentions of OC being RAS for a stop in Phila depend on the perception that the OCer is armed AND dangerous. Eliminate or reduce the perception of being dangerous and the RAS dissapears. The Phila Commish's memo re OC says (paraphrasing) "no officer can know if the OCer has the LTCF needed to legalize what is otherwise an illegal act." But a copy of the LTCF on the holster and around the neck of the OCer would serve to offset that doubt. Cops do not stop known undercover officers, plainclothes officers or off-duty officers because they are not considered dangerous. Some people carry a rabbit's foot for luck. Can't hurt right? If someone is going to OC anyway they should consider if they are any worse off in an encounter with the PPD if they are using this tactic.

While you're right in theory, what you'll likely hear from the PPD as they handcuff you is, "tell it to the judge".

The police should be versed in the law, and have been given training on certain "hot button" issues like Open/Concealed Carry, but if they are unsure, they will likely charge you. Furthermore, it seems from their behavior (although I have no way to confirm this) that many departments like PPD are instructed by their superiors, despite MPOETC training, to ignore such training in lieu of a procedure which conforms to an agenda.

[30Glock]

I am a former Philadelphian and I read about the abuses that OCers run into there. I also just posted a similar remark at the Opencarry.com site.
Question:What would happen if OCers started putting a reduced size, laminated copy of their LTCF on their holsters plus a full size, laminated, (notarized?) copy on a chain around their necks? Could the PPD justify taking an OCer at gunpoint, disarming and cuffing them with evidence of legal carry staring them in the face?? They might/would do it per the memo anyway the first few times but how would that play out in the courts? The OCers would have to verbally notify the PPD what the documents are and ask/demand that they examine them before violating their rights. They would have to possess the original on their person to back up the copies. I have an image of a photographer or reporter with a PRESS card in their hat band. (Yeah, it is a black and white image from an old movie.)

In theory a good idea, But these criminals in uniform will still harass Ocers, You can OC in philly carrying a picket sign with a copy of you LTCF on it, They will need to verify the status of your LTCF (active, revoked ) This will be their reasoning for stopping and harassing you.

[bill gray]

I agree with the three prior posts. Ocers in Phila may be (will be) stopped, harassed and possibly arrested. I hope that the motive for an attitude adjustment and/or the re-write of the OC memo from the Commish will come later from the directions of the IAD, DA, courts and possible civil damages awards. The tactic is a fulcrum. Give me a fulcrum and I will move the world. (Who said that?) I understand there may some grunting and straining involved. Wouldn't it be a welcome change to have PPD officers cautiously and politely approaching OCers in Phila and simply asking to see the original LTCF? No drawn weapons, no getting proned out, no cuffs, no confiscations. Just a careful, professional and polite verification of legal OCing and done.