Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    Simple answer: Revenue

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    Shooter, you are asking the right type of questions. Keep it up, it's a good thing.

    Have you ever stood on the rim of the Grand Canyon in AZ? (If not, try to take the time to visit it, it's a life changing experience). Your question is very much like that first visit to the rim of the Grand Canyon. You are gazing out onto a vast expanse, gasping at its great breadth and depth, overwhelmed by it size.

    That's the best way I can describe the size of your question. There's a lot of additional information that one needs to know about the manner, customs, and rules relating to judicial actions. It's almost like walking into a mine field, you better know what you're in for.

    A warrior must prepare himself for the upcoming battle, and know his enemy.

    I'll lay out just a few of the snares that await those of venture into the mine field.

    Before a suit can be filed one must be "injured" in some manner in order to have standing in front of the court. You or I cannot just file a suit, we must have our rights infringed or denied in some serious manner.

    The words used in the Constitution, both federal and State, are defined in one particular legal dictionary. The words used in the writing of State statutes are found in another set of legal dictionaries. The words between the two are not necessarily interchangeable. There are serious word games being played.

    Due process only means having a case heard by a court, it does not been that that court has to render a final judgment. A court can hear a case, then find cause to have the charge dismissed without having to file any record. That means that your case is dismissed, but others cannot use your effort to assist them in their effort ( there's no case rule generated).

    These are just a few of the pitfalls that need to be considered before entering the arena.

    But don't let these issues deter you from continuing to learn and press forward with your convictions. It's just like an obstacle course, with the proper preparation, one can get through it.

    Asking the question, and bringing the issue in front of elected officials, can get the topic into the minds of people. And in time get them to become part of the effort to respect the Rights of the People.


    There's an saying made by an old DC Senator; " When I feels the heat I sees the light!". We've got to build a bonfire under their butts!

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    deleted...
    Last edited by nightglider; October 15th, 2010 at 09:33 PM.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    Point #1) People need to start OCing. I OC but also know that I am in the distinct minority of gunowners who do so.

    -A right unexercised is a right lost. If nobody OC'd, some politician somewhere, someday would exclaim: "why do we need to allow OC as nobody uses it anyway?"

    -Transplants from NY/NJ move here and bring their bizarre ideas about guns with them. The only way that will change is to see the "good guys" with guns....good guys OCing (as opposed to CCing).

    -It's ALWAYS a good thing if bad guys see the good guys carrying and know they are armed. Some might think twice about playing Russian Roulette with their lives.


    Point #2) IF the state is going to require LTCF to carry, it should be a lifetime license unless one does something to require it to be revoked. Requiring one to "re-up" every 5 years is another example of the state questioning our rights.....perhaps a place to start with a challenge. (not to mention all of the fees.....$35 every 5 years....for exercising a fundamental right. Imagine a poll tax, or a pen tax.....absolutely no different than a LTCF fee). There should be absolutely no fee for a LTCF.

    Let me repost this for people who may not be aware of the PA Constitution (Section 21) regarding the right to bear arms:

    “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”
    Last edited by ShooterInPA1; October 15th, 2010 at 09:49 PM.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterInPA1 View Post
    If any state should have Constitutional Carry, I would think it would be PA, yet we do not. Curious why this is the case as the PA Constitution is about as unambiguous as possible. It could not be written more clearly IMO. The framers wanted every citizen the right to defend themselves and this is a right which cannot be questioned.

    Having to get a LTCF is indeed questioning this right.....therefore Unconstitutional IMO. Where am I going wrong?



    PA Constitution
    Right to Bear Arms
    Section 21.
    The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.
    Easy. One word: Philadelphia
    loose≠lose; you're=you are; 'your' shows possession.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    The answer is always the same. It's about control, and money. Just like everything else the government does.
    " The Seeds of Oppression Will One Day Bear The Fruit of Rebellion."

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    The answer, in it's purest essence, is:
    INTOLERANCE!

    People are unwilling to tolerate the uncertainty of Freedom!


    Freedom is a dangerous and messy business. It requires that you, personally, take responsibility for the safety of yourself and your family. It requires that you allow others to do things you do not agree with.

    At some point, Freedom became intolerable and enough citizens demanded that the Government (local, state or national) step in and enforce their choices on others. After that happened enough times, the Government simply began to take such 'protective actions' preemptively...


    So, here we are with a Nanny Government that demands that all citizens acquiesce their rights to the Government so that IT can do what is best for everyone...

    We have a Socialist Government for the good of the people..... ask almost any Government worker and they will tell you how important it is to expand even more - for the good of the people...

    There are fewer and fewer people today who have the 'common values' that existed at the time of the founding of America - or they would be demanding that the GOVERNMENT DO LESS AND LESS - rather than demanding that the Government do more and more...

    This is why our recent elections have been such great pendulum swings back and forth as the proponents of disparate values are able to muster power that surges and wanes...


    Based on the 'Common Values' espoused by the Founders, there's NO REASON WHY Pennsylvania (the Birthplace of Freedom) doesn't have Constitutional Carry.... the fact that we don't have it is a symptom of a much larger problem.

    ...
    ID
    Last edited by ImminentDanger; October 18th, 2010 at 01:34 PM.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?
    We don't have 'constitutional carry' because no one cares enough. That's an admonishment to the People in general but also one for this gray cloud of gun owners, many who purport to be 'pro-gun'/'pro-liberty'/whatever. It's true that we've been dealt cards from a shit deck, such a stacking occurring at least as far back as the 1920s (as the then NRA president began writing up and dissemination UFAs for several states!) but perhaps as far back as 1875. However, to this day, many have only learned helplessness and are not actually legally helpless.

    How many people here have taken the time to learn how to draft a bill (consulting books and documents, asking the PALRB and Assemblymen for help, etc.), gone on to draft a bill to repeal § 6106, § 6106.1, § 6108, etc. and have asked every 203 reps and 50 senators in order to find one of each to put forth that bill in each house? 0 of us?

    But you don't even need PAFOAC or the NRA or anyone to do that (P.S. when was the last time either put forth a bill to largely repeal the UFA? Never? That's not a problem, just something you have to realize when you take on your quest for liberty). Just you. Of course people will tell you that the bill will never be successful, how can just one person accomplish anything, etc. Part of our problem is patience and a failure to forsee the beneficial effects of an 'obvious' failure, that a singular little jaunt into activism is not actually a be-all-and-end-all of the quest for liberty. While we may want constitutional carry, and if any of us were to put forth that bill that we've learned how to draft, and the culture or the representatives weren't ready to make it happen, the alternative outcome is that the bill you've presented seems EXTREME and then bills like those PAFOAC put forth seem less extreme and are more likely to succeed. Conversely, when less extreme bills like those PAFOAC put forth are successful, they improve the culture and make it more willing to take on a bill like that which brings constitutional carry.

    One of our other failures is to recognize and seriously consider the several other avenues to achieve a goal. How many of us initiate lawsuits to generate positive case law (demanding the right be recognized through the judiciary rather than the legislature)? How many of us subject ourselves to a civil or criminal liability in order to achieve standing to challenge the constitutionality of these egregious laws? How many of us have tried to intervene or participate as amicus in other cases that involve the importance of liberty? How could we care so little that we wouldn't learn to do or take on any of this?

    And there are still yet other avenues. Why is a DA in Wisconsin refusing to prosecute UFA-styled offenses while we here in PA fail to ask our DA's to do the same? Who has contacted their DA, their mayor or borough council or commissioners or supervisors or manager or police chief to ask these people to respect their oaths and command their inferiors to no longer arrest/prosecute based on unconstitutional law?

    And who has taken the time or care to get themselves on the ballot for any office where they could usurp the position from a tyrant and do some good for us all? Why just vote when you can actually take the place of a criminal in government? The executive can create constitutional carry through a unified failure to execute unconstitutional law just as well as a judgment striking down a law or a bill repealing it. It is yet another avenue.

    Another trap we fall into is our failure to comprehend the full formula for liberty. It's probably the single largest reason so many are afraid to demand rights they deserve. Many fail to contemplate that a failure to meet the demands for liberty must be a call to repel tyranny. There's no incentive to promote liberty when the People just bitch and whine and fail to even vote or do any other thing that might improve their situation. The demand for liberty and the consideration of revolution provides that liberty will come now (by law) or later (by force), without that bifurcated path it might be thought liberty could never come, when we reach the point where we have been largely disarmed by incrementalism and brainwashing and lack not only the will but the means to take back our government.

    So I am convinced the People just don't care enough. There are so many things we could feel out, collaborate upon, and learn about, this tool that is PAFOA being of great help in the endeavor, but that we never really take upon ourselves to do. There are lots of promises, intents, plans, and considerations each day, many that become lost in time and space. (I know exactly about those types of things, in fact I can remember the last 3 times I typed about drafting my own bill to largely repeal the UFA and to this day I cannot say I've asked 253 assemblymen to put the bill forth.) So maybe we should endeavor to see a few more of those through a little bit further, to do what we can to get our right to carry recognized.

    Quote Originally Posted by XD40coyote View Post
    Yeah but we don't have a right to 6-packs of beer written into the constitution. There is no " the right of the people to buy 6-packs of beer at Sheetz shall not be questioned".
    It could be said that because § 6106 only prohibits 'carry' and 'concealed' that it doesn't infringe on the right to 'bear' arms. On the other hand, I would say that people actually do have the right to buy 6-packs of beer at Sheetz when both the buyer and seller are willing, if we can read 'bear' to be encompassing, because, 'All men . . . have certain inherent and indefeasible rights, among which are those of enjoying . . . liberty, of acquiring, possessing . . . property . . . and of pursuing their own happiness.' That ultimately covers the acquisition, possession, and disposition of a 6-pack of beer at Sheetz in consideration of both the rights of the buyer and the seller.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShooterInPA1 View Post
    The wording could not be more unambiguous in Section 21 of the PA Constitution. And given that AK, AZ, and VT have Constitutional Carry and yet do not have such clear wording in their Constitutions as PA has
    Actually, Vermont started with our 1776 right to bear arms when they adopted their 1777 constitution, at Chapter I, Article XV which provided a springboard into Rosenthal and their state of affairs today. It was the same constitutional basis for which the judiciary took a different path than PA's. And here today, it's the same thing at Chapter I, Section 16: "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State--and as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power." Although I won't speak for AK and AZ at the moment, it's actually our constitution which is the basis for Vermont constitutional carry.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    we don't have constitutional carry because Americans are lazy...Americans are too lazy to stand up and fight for their rights. here we are sitting in our comfortable chairs relaxing while our founders put their heads on the line to declare our independence and preserve our liberties. if we're not willing to fight for our freedoms and liberties, they will simply cease to exist. freedom & liberty is not a guaranteed right..it's a right that MUST be fought for 24/7, 365.
    Peace, Prosperity, and Liberty

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Why doesn't Pennsylvania have Constitutional Carry?

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewjs18 View Post
    we don't have constitutional carry because Americans are lazy...Americans are too lazy to stand up and fight for their rights. here we are sitting in our comfortable chairs relaxing while our founders put their heads on the line to declare our independence and preserve our liberties. if we're not willing to fight for our freedoms and liberties, they will simply cease to exist. freedom & liberty is not a guaranteed right..it's a right that MUST be fought for 24/7, 365.
    There is not much difference to maintenance of liberty and maintenance of a firearm. Each is subject to continuous degradation simply by existing, and whether it is cleaning a gun after each firing or cleaning out corrupt criminals after each term of office, failure to perform that regular maintenance will not only decrease the quality of liberty or the firearm, but also make harm to it more irreversible. Just as pockets of obstination against liberty form when we fail to be vigilant against bad public officials, rifle bores rust and pit to the point of serious effects to accuracy. Because generation after generation before us failed to perform that maintenance on our government, the sense of liberty has become rusted and pitted, and that is why it seems overwhelming to consider standing up to the government today. Of course, there will be a point at which the only sensible thing to do is to melt down that failed firearm and make a new one from it, but we would have to do that while our government still lets us make use of a forge...

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