Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    King of Prussia, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Default Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    So, Sat am again, went to the bagelicious with my daughter for our customary breakfast...I was OC as I frequently do...uneventful as usual.

    We proceed to the Farmers Market located at the Upper Merion Township building Parking lot.

    I get my coffee, buy some artisan bread, whole milk milk-shake (etc). While waiting for my daughter to have her face painted, I hear the tell tale... "SIR! SIR" over my left shoulder about 12 feet or so away.

    I continue to engage my daughter in conversation, commenting on how still she is sitting for the artist painting the Turquoise and Pink butterfly on her face, and ignore the contined and repeated attempts to disengage me from my conversations.

    So one of UM's finest decides to close the distance and gets within personal space in a fairly loud manner (similar in tone and volume as he was shouting "SIR!" from a dozen feet aqway, and yet was only 3 feet away now).

    UMPD: Show Me your permit

    ME: I respond in roughly the equal volume, maybe slightly lower, as I did not know if the officer had a hearing problem and was speaking louder than normal

    Officer....you know as well as I do, one is not required while on foot.

    (UMPD facial reactions were priceless....rolling of eyes, disgusted look, etc)

    UMPD: In a normal tone of voice now ...
    You think something is going to happen at a Farmers market...with kids around...(didn't wait for a response to question)... Show me your license..

    ME: I am not required to show you my license, I am only required to identify myself to you. (again with the strained facial expressions... felt like if we were in a dark street he woulda exploded!)

    My response to the officer must have taken the people around me back a bit... you could hear the gasp and almost snicker from the locals, this kinda pissed him off a little more...

    UMPD:Where do you live....

    ME: Pennsylvania, My name is "marinakorp" ... I spelled slowly, clearly and using "M" as in Mary and "N" as in Nancy wherever appropriate.

    UMPD: you gonna give me your birthdate?

    ME: I have identified my self to you and have fulfilled my obligation, now if you don't mind, I would like to get back to enjoying my daughters company. as I gestured towards my daughter having her face painted only a few feet away.

    UMPD: Turned and walked towards his cruiser in a huff... filling out paperwork, checking his SCMODS no doubt.

    A second vehicle showed, I stayed where I was with my daughter, finished my coffee, and enjoyed my daughters company. officer 1 spoke to officer 2 (probably supervisor) and returned to vehicle and both drove off.

    We stayed at the Farmers Markert for a little while longer, they had a old fashion wool / yarn spinning and loom demonstration that held our attention for a little while, and off to the playground for some rock climbing and other assorted 6 year old frivolity.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania
    (Dauphin County)
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    Default Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    Rep to you. If I had it to do over again I would not have given my DOB in a similar situation. Still a bit PO'd that I gave in, but I felt a DC charge coming on.

    Anyway, I hope you had a good day with your daughter, without anymore harrassment.
    Power always thinks...that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    PA, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    IANAL and might be wrong but PA is NOT a stop and identify state.

    You didn't have to give that officer anything, including your name.

    Frankly.... if a cop approached me like that and rudely interrupted time with my daughter, I would have COMPLETELY ignored him. If escalated, I would have reminded him of the law and called 911 to report Official Oppression and harassment

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Montgomery County, Pennsylvania
    (Montgomery County)
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    Question Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    Did you get the moron's name?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    S.E. Pa., Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    What constitutes identification in a situation like that? Is just a name sufficient?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Scranton, Pennsylvania
    (Lackawanna County)
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    Default Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    You must give your name, verbally, if requested, but that is it!

    Nice job, OP!
    "...a REPUBLIC, if you can keep it."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
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    ?, Pennsylvania
    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    Quote Originally Posted by wa3ra View Post
    You must give your name, verbally, if requested, but that is it!

    Nice job, OP!
    Where do we find this 'verbal identification' requirement?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    South East of disorder
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    Default Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    Quote Originally Posted by wa3ra View Post
    You must give your name, verbally, if requested, but that is it!
    No you dont! What if you are incommunicado?

    Mere incounter: A Police officer asks you what your name is because you are OC (like the OP) you are under NO OBLIGATION, NONE,NADA NOPE ZERO, ZILTCH to even answer him!


    IANAL

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Monroe County)
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    Default Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    I would like to know where this "requirement" comes from, as well. Last I heard, even if you were to skin someone in front of a dozen cops, you have the right to remain silent and your silence can not be used as evidence against you. I was also under the impression that outside a city of the first class there was no assumption of a crime possible from simply open carrying a firearm on foot. Failure to produce a LTCF while doing something a LTCF is needed for is arguably a crime. Failure to produce a drivers license while doing something a drivers license is needed for, can get you a ticket. I am not sure where it becomes against the law to refuse to identify yourself while doing something that requires no identification...

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty
    than to those attending too small a degree of it."~Thomas Jefferson, 1791
    Hobson fundraiser Remember SFN Read before you Open Carry

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Default Re: Another Upper Merion Encounter...mixed encounter

    If marinakorp was in a place where he/she did not reside, then I would have no problem with what he/she did.

    Now if these are the same cops that would patrol marinakorp's neighborhood, I would have responded differently. There is little need to agitate your local police if you can help it. If anything, you can educate them in a polite manner, shake their hand and part ways with a positive feeling. Btw, putting your hand out to a cop really does a lot to their demeanor.

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