Factory receivers vs aftermarket receivers?

[FJR86]

I was considering building a bolt action rifle for some precision shooting.
More specifally I was looking at the Rem model 700 styles.

I noticed there are a lot of aftermarket receivers. Are there any real precision gains from an aftermarket receiver versus a factory receiver that has been blueprinted and trued? Assuming all other variables stay the same?

[Rundownfid]

Until some of our more experienced long range shooters come on and tell you the real story let me venture my views.

in my opinion if you have a factory 700 action blue printed and trued by a real expert there would be very liltle to gain from one of the after-market action, many of which are copies of the 700. I assume in this that you are also having an after-market trigger installed and the barrel, bedding etc done by the same expert? At which time you should have an exceptionally accurate rifle, and also a very expensive one. On the other hand is you pay the premium for the after market action the cost to have the rifle put together should be somewhat reduced, so that should partially offset the extra cost of the action. I'll be curious to watch this to see what others think. Have you considered an out of the box custom, like Les Bair (sp?)?

[mongo]

Over the years I had custom rifles in M700, Mauser, and Springfield. Most were good shooting units. Then I ordered a Remington 40XB-KS single shot in 308. With a good scope installed and match ammo it will shoot just as good if not better than the custom stuff and with no muss or fuss. I think the only thing that would be better would be a Hart single shot action if they still make it any more.

[Tomcat088]

Over the years I had custom rifles in M700, Mauser, and Springfield. Most were good shooting units. Then I ordered a Remington 40XB-KS single shot in 308. With a good scope installed and match ammo it will shoot just as good if not better than the custom stuff and with no muss or fuss. I think the only thing that would be better would be a Hart single shot action if they still make it any more.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with your assessment of the rifles. Whether you realize it or not, the 40XB-KS is a custom rifle, it merely comes from Remington's custom shop (hence the KS). I like and have shot quite a few Remington 40-X's, and they're nice rifles. I don't say this to try to offend you, but I don't think they're $2,600 (or more) rifles. They do shoot good, but just because they shoot well, doesn't mean that they're the same quality as other custom makers. I've also seen Remington 5R's and Sendero's that cost less than half of what the 40-X's cost, shoot JUST AS GOOD.

Honestly, at this day in age, there's nothing all that special about the Remington 40XB-KS. The action isn't even blue printed, it's STOCK!!! One of the things that helps them shoot is that the barrels are hand fitted, so I'm guessing they probably at least square up the face of the receiver when they fit them, but it's still not blue printing the receiver. They also still have a stock Remington barrel, which is fine, but it's not nearly the same quality as a custom barrel that has been hand lapped and stress relieved. The do have a decent stock, but it's nothing special, it's basically a H.S. Precision or Bell & Carlson stock, that they bed. They do have a nice trigger (40-X), and it's nice that it's completely externally adjustable, but it's not like you can't find one of these triggers to put on a custom build from someone else, or that you can't find an aftermarket trigger that does the same thing (externally adjustable, even the 2 oz models).

I don't mean to ruffle yours or anybody else's feathers about the rifle. I know they're nice and shoot well. Either way, I don't see anything all that special done to them that they can demand such a high price. Look for yourself at the specs from Remington http://www.remingtoncustom.com/40X_40xbks.aspx . $2600 can get you a dang long ways on a custom build, and I believe you get a lot of bang for your buck. If all you want it to do is shoot good groups with match grade ammo, a 5R or Sendero will do that for you. Honestly, if you look at the specs, besides the 40-X trigger and hand fitted barrel, and bedded, there's no difference. You can have a smith do this for MUCH cheaper than the $2,600 that Remington is asking. Sorry, but there's definitely better, and especially for the money.

[Tomcat088]

I was considering building a bolt action rifle for some precision shooting.
More specifally I was looking at the Rem model 700 styles.

I noticed there are a lot of aftermarket receivers. Are there any real precision gains from an aftermarket receiver versus a factory receiver that has been blueprinted and trued? Assuming all other variables stay the same?

This is a very good question, and I think it's one that more people should ask before they start on a custom build. Have you read the sticky in the "gunsmithing" section that I wrote about modifying precision rifles for accuracy? It'll give you an idea of SOME of what needs to be done to a Remington 700 to blue print one. Sometimes people also take further steps on the bolt, bolt raceways, firing pin holes, etc.

The first question I'd like to ask you is this, what kind of "accuracy" are you looking for? At this day in age, you don't have to go full out custom to get amazing accuracy. If you WANT to build a custom rifle and have the budget to do it, there's nothing wrong with that (I've done it). I just don't want you to think that you have to build a full custom rifle to get a rifle that will shoot great. With match grade ammunition, it's pretty easy to get a Remington Sendero or Remington 5R to shoot well. We're talking 5 shots in .5" or less at 100 yards, if the shooter is capable. Now people talk about this kind of accuracy like it happens all the time, but that's BS. You have to have a heck of a rifle and shooter to ALWAYS (not just sometimes) put 5 in less than .5" at 100. With handloads, which you'll probably want to do for a custom rifle anyway, even those rifles will break below 5 shots inside of .5" at 100 yards. I'd say those rifles are more of the "semi custom" nature, they come from the factory, but they have special features and traits that make them not just an "off the rack" rifle.

I'll let you answer that question first, before I go into more detail about receivers, etc. It'll be a pretty in depth post, which I have no problem doing IF you want to build a custom rifle (on a Remington 700 or custom action). I just first want to know what you would like to accomplish, what "style" of rifle you want, etc. Or I want to know if you're thinking custom because you believe it's the only way to get the kind of accuracy that you want. I will also say that if you aren't handloading, and don't plan on it, then even having a custom rifle built, will probably NOT put you below accuracy of 5 shots in .5" at 100 yards. The rifle is only one part of the combination for extreme accuracy. So what are you looking for, just accuracy, a particular style, already decided to build a custom, etc?

[arrrrgh15]

I was considering building a bolt action rifle for some precision shooting.
More specifally I was looking at the Rem model 700 styles.

I noticed there are a lot of aftermarket receivers. Are there any real precision gains from an aftermarket receiver versus a factory receiver that has been blueprinted and trued? Assuming all other variables stay the same?

Take the cost of a factory Rem 700 reciever, add in the machining costs from a competent LR gunsmith, and you'll be at or near the cost of a custom action that's already set up correctly out of the box...and probably has better features than even a trued rem 700.

For what it's worth I shoot a trued 700 action and there really probably isn't much difference in accuracy vs a few buddies custom actions. But while I paid nearly as much for mine, it's still just a remington and not a surgeon, GAP, Badger, or the like.

If and when I build a new rifle, it'll definately be on a custom action....unless I win a 700 at a raffle or something.

[Tomcat088]

Take the cost of a factory Rem 700 reciever, add in the machining costs from a competent LR gunsmith, and you'll be at or near the cost of a custom action that's already set up correctly out of the box...and probably has better features than even a trued rem 700.

For what it's worth I shoot a trued 700 action and there really probably isn't much difference in accuracy vs a few buddies custom actions. But while I paid nearly as much for mine, it's still just a remington and not a surgeon, GAP, Badger, or the like.

If and when I build a new rifle, it'll definately be on a custom action....unless I win a 700 at a raffle or something.

Arrrrgh15 hit the nail on the head. If you have to buy a Remington 700 so that you can have a "donor" action, it's really not much cheaper. If you already have a rifle that you're going to use for the build, then it'll save you a bit of money. Part of it will depend on your budget, if you're on a tight budget, and already have a rifle, then the money that you spent could be put towards the stock, scope, etc. Notice I said "put towards" because most of the components on a proper rifle will NOT be paid for by that difference.

Let's say that you come across a cheap Remington 700 that you buy for $400, then you have to spend $200-250 for BASIC blue printing. So they true up the integral lugs, bolt lugs, bolt face, and face up the receiver. Then I'm sorry but a factory Remington lug is not going to cut it, so yo'ure going to have to spend $25-30, then let's say another $10 for shipping. So you just spent $690 or maybe a bit more, and you end up with a Remington receiver, and all that is assuming that you can get a rifle for $400. The chances are that you'll probably end up spending a bit more, so let's look at if it cost you $500, then you've spent $790 total for the Remington action. You still have a factory bolt throw, it'll be rougher and have more play than a custom action; it WILL probably feel better than a non blueprinted Remington 700 though. If you wanted the same feel in a Remington 700, you'll have to pay to sleeve the bolt, which will cost quite a bit of money. You end up having a Remington bolt made of multiple pieces, unless you paid even more money to have something like a PTG bolt custom fit to your action. You still have a factory firing pin that is heavier and will have a slower lock time that a custom firing pin. You still have the same tenon length for your barrel, which is fine, but it's better to have a little more length because it reduces stress on the barrel in the chamber area. You STILL have to pay for and put on a base, whereas in some actions it may be integral or come with one of their perfectly machined bases. There's lots more to it. The chances that the firing pin is PERFECTLY centered and not oversized is also better on a custom action. If you wanted those features on a Remington 700, you'd have to pay more to have the gunsmith fix it.

There kind of comes a point of "dying gains". Custom actions won't always increase your accuracy, but they will increase the feel and overall "value" for the dollars that you've spent. The other thing to remember is that not all BR actions will make your tactical rifle function best, sometimes their tolerances are TOO TIGHT. You can get some very nice custom actions for $950-1,100. Spending more than that is really starting to get in the "dying gains" place, but if you think the features, feel and name are worth it, that's perfectly fine. It is a lot of money to spend on an action, BUT let's look at some of what you're getting with that. Just because these custom actions are "copies" of a Remington 700, doesn't mean they're exactly the same, most of them have some improvements over the stock Remington 700, on top of having better tolerances. Lots have integral recoil lugs, integral bases/scope mounts, non binding bolts, better steel, more camming force (to aid in extraction), longer tenon length, etc. Lots of these share components with Remington 700's so that if you needed to use Remington 700 parts on it, they're easy to get and you have LOTS of options to further customize the action. The nice thing is that any part that fits a Remington 700, like triggers, firing pins, stocks, etc, will fit this action. A big complaint of lots of people is the extractor on the Remigton 700. Some of them have "M-16" extractors, or Sako extractors; which is a big deal to lots of people. Some come with fluted bolts or the option, which some people like and some people don't. Some will have a slightly larger or smaller ejection port (depending on what you're looking for); so that it's easier to load, or supposedly more "rigid". The nice thing about all these actions is that they're pretty much ready to chamber/headspace a barrel, thread it on, put a trigger in, slap it in a stock and shoot it.

Pretty much, you get the satisfaction of having an action that was "done right" the first time, and not "corrected". The feel of the actions is superb, as are the finish and quality. Sometimes smiths have to make a bit of a compromise on some things, or it's only possible to correct an action so much before it ends up costing you a lot more. Part of this depends on where too little or too much metal is; with a custom action, you don't have this problem. There's something else that you should consider and think about also, and that's "resale value". Hopefully you never have to sell the rifle, but what if you had to, or eventually want to? What if you have the rifle and at some point pass away, whoever inherits it may decide to sell it. A custom action will ABSOLUTELY have a MUCH higher resale value than a blueprinted Remington 700. With a blueprinted Remington 700, people always have doubts about how well it was done, and by who it was done. Even with very popular or famous smiths, sometimes they get rushed, have a bad day, etc; they're human. So people just always have a little bit of doubt about "how well" it was blueprinted. If someone that doesn't have a big name blueprints the receiver, you're not going to get much if any back for the actual blueprinting work. On a custom action, there's not much to question, a precision CNC machine did the work to VERY tight tolerances. A person who is interested in buying a firearm of this caliber knows exactly what they're getting, and has the peace of mind that it was done right.

It's just like Arrrrgh15 said, unless you win a Remington 700 in a raffle, or already have a rifle that you don't shoot and are willing to sacrifice, I wouldn't recommend building on a Remington 700 action. For the extra couple hundred dollars, you end up with a higher quality piece, better investment/return, and just a peace of mind. I personally think it's worth the extra $200-300, but your budget may dictate otherwise. My custom rifle that I had recently built is made on a Remington 700, BUT I got it for VERY cheap, and I'm friends with the gunsmith. This means that I basically didn't pay for the blueprinting, he just charged me to chamber the barrel. WHEN I build another rifle, it'll be on a custom action, unless it's the same kind of deal. If you need recommendations on certain actions that will be in a particular price range, we can help you with that. What are your thoughts on factory and blueprinting vs. custom now?

[FJR86]

I am looking for something to shoot well with factory match grade ammunition until I can afford a reloading press (just graduated college)

I askbecause a while ago I saw Midway's videos on how to blueprint/true a bolt action set. True bolt face, lugs, receiver etc.

I like the idea of it being built to my specs instead of buying a donor rifle, stripping it and then just end up with the receiver and bolt. I did this with an Ar15 and would have been much easier just starting from scratch. I also love HS precision stocks and AI stocks.

The question then becomes, what is an adequate reciever set that doesn't cost as much as a whole rifle? I looked at Surgeon's which run $1k+ for the model I was interested in. (.300WM with detachable magazine) I was also looking at GAP's Templar action, which is a bit better, price wise, last time I checked their prices on the action.

Buying it in pieces will allow me to acculmulate parts progessively over time and won't be as harsh on my wallet.

I think the custom actions would seem to suite me better based on what you guys have said. I will check out prices and details on custom actions and pick one I like.

[Tomcat088]

I am looking for something to shoot well with factory match grade ammunition until I can afford a reloading press (just graduated college)

I askbecause a while ago I saw Midway's videos on how to blueprint/true a bolt action set. True bolt face, lugs, receiver etc.

I like the idea of it being built to my specs instead of buying a donor rifle, stripping it and then just end up with the receiver and bolt. I did this with an Ar15 and would have been much easier just starting from scratch. I also love HS precision stocks and AI stocks.

The question then becomes, what is an adequate reciever set that doesn't cost as much as a whole rifle? I looked at Surgeon's which run $1k+ for the model I was interested in. (.300WM with detachable magazine) I was also looking at GAP's Templar action, which is a bit better, price wise, last time I checked their prices on the action.

Buying it in pieces will allow me to acculmulate parts progessively over time and won't be as harsh on my wallet.

I think the custom actions would seem to suite me better based on what you guys have said. I will check out prices and details on custom actions and pick one I like.

Hmmm, I'm trying to think exactly how to respond to your post because I kind of have mixed feelings about what to say. I guess that I have some questions to ask first. What are your experiences with precision shooting? What is your experience with big bore and magnum rifles? Are you trying to achieve precision shooting, or long range as well? Since you mention .300 winmag it makes me think you are also trying to achieve long range shooting. What is your experience with LR shooting, and what is the longest range you've shot at?

I understand what it's like to just graduate college, and budget constraints that can come with that. If you're worried about getting a reloading press, it really makes me question if building a custom rifle is what you want to do now or anytime soon. Reloading presses can be had for pretty cheap, especially when we're talking about relative terms and comparing them to the cost of a custom rifle. How much do you intend to spend on this rifle? If you're talking about a full out custom, on a custom action, you're easily looking at $2,700 or more WITHOUT a scope. I'll price it out for you in a minute so that you kind of have an idea of what to expect, but it is NOT cheap.

I understand about wanting to buy seperate pieces so that it doesn't hurt th pocket book all at once, that's pretty much how most "normal people" have to build a custom rifle. Everybody likes the idea of a custom rifle, but when you start seeing what it really costs to get in the game, and then what it costs to get truly proficient with the rifle; most of the time it's just a novel idea. Pretty much EVERY custom action that you're going to be looking at will cost more than a "factory rifle"; so if you're honestly considering building on one, you might as well forget the idea of getting one for cheaper than an actual rifle. Let's say that you went with a "cheaper" custom action, you'd still be looking at spending something around $800-900. That would put you around a Lawton 7000 or Surgeon RSR (not their other repeater actions, those are $1400 and up). Then you're looking at a quality barrel from one of the big names (Krieger, Rock, Bartlien, Shilen, etc, etc). You're going to spend $300-400, if you want fluted it'll be $400 or more. That puts you around $1300 for the barrel and action. You said you like HS Precision stocks (which I don't), and even their "hunting style" stocks cost $300. Most people want the tactical style stocks, and if you're looking at those you'll spend $370. If you wanted to go with something like a McMillan, the base price for a tactical style without pillars or anything is $500. For a cheap AI chassis that is 1.5 (not the 2), you're going to spend $850 or more. So let's use the McMillan as a "reasonable stock", when you add that on you're at $1,800. Now you want a DBM system, even the "cheap" ones are $300, but you're probably going to want something better like the Badger or similar, and spend $400 WITHOUT any magazines. So that puts you at $2,200 so far. You probably want a decent trigger, and we'll say that you go with something "cheap" (not a jewell), so throw in another $100 for that, putting you at $2,300 just in some basic parts and NOTHING fancy on the McMillan. So now let's look at paying the gunsmith, luckily he doesn't have to work over the action, but there's still lots more to do. You have to have the barrel threaded, crowned, and headspaced to the action, probably going to run you a minimum of $175 (maybe more). Then you still have to install the badget pillars and bed the action and DBM, so that's probably going to run you another $175 (or more). So now you're at $2,600, and you have a custom rifle with a good action, quality barrel and bottom metal, and the most basic McMillan. If you want flush cups, adjustable comb, length of pull, or anything else, it's more. Now you still need a bipod and quality picatinny rail, don't forget quality rings for whatever scope you're going to put on the rifle. Just between quality rings and bipod you will spend over $200, and let's say you go with something basic but nice like a Harris bipod with notch legs, swivel and pod lock; another $120. So now you're in $2,920, and you have a put together rifle with bipod; no level, sling, angle cosin indicator, nothin, plain jane. Needless to say, building a custom bolt gun is NOT something to just jump into or take light heartedly.

The question then becomes about optics. So what would you like to spend on optics? After shelling out that much money, how much are you able to shell out for optics? Even if you get a decent tactical scope, you're looking at $300-400, which really won't do justice to the rifle. If you go on the "cheap side" of a legitimate tactical scope, let's say you find a used Leupold Mark 4, it's still another $1,000. So now you're in $3,920, and have a setup that is ready to shoot. Have you ever purchased match grade .300 winmag ammunition? http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Brow...hKeyword=match You don't have too many choices, and you're going to be paying $40-50 a box or so PLUS shipping. Because of the weight, it gets expensive to ship, pretty quick. You'll most likely spend almost $80 just getting the rifle sighted in and really dialed in for 100 yards. Then you want to get dope and shoot long range, you're going to have to shoot lots of ammo and keep a good log book. You can pay for a full reloading set up pretty fast when you're paying $40 or more for 20 rounds.

Honestly, if you are worried about affording a reloading press, it just may not be the time for a full on custom build. There's not really much of a reason to build a full custom rifle that costs that much, and then be limited on how often you shoot it because of the price of ammunition. Not only that, you also have to find a range to shoot long enough distances to really take advantage of the fine rifle you've built. How close are you to an 800-1,000 yard range? If you're not pretty close, you'll be spending money to travel to the range. If you're not taking the rifle to those kinds of ranges, there may not be much of a point in having a custom rifle like this, especially if it strains you financially.

Honestly, if your goal is to learn to shoot long range, building a custom rifle isn't the answer. I could put my custom rifle in your hands right now, and unless someone that knows what they're doing is calling the wind for you, collected good dope, and you pull the trigger properly; you won't make hits, at least not consistently. You learn by having decent equipment, working on fundamentals, and sending rounds downrange. If price is a concern, as it is for most of us, you'd probably be better served purchasing something like a Remington 5R or Sendero, if you're fond of the Remington 700. These rifles are more accurate than most shooters, and definitely than someone not already experienced in LR shooting. You spend $1,000 on one of those rifles, and $1,000-1,200 on a quality scope. You spend a little more on a reloading setup and learn to reload and find a pet load for your rifle. In this way you have a quality setup that will FAR outshoot you, and serve you just fine until you learn the fundamentals. With this setup, you can also afford to feed the rifle, and shoot enough to get good at LR shooting. Maybe you want to build a custom rifle, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I want you to know what you're getting into. The truth of the matter is that you'll spend a LOT more money in ammunition, than what your rifle cost to get good at LR shooting. I just don't want you to buy all these parts and have to stop in the middle of the build, or finish the rifle and then not be able to achieve the goal you might have in mind. I've known WAY too many people that thought if they put the rifle together, they'd all the sudden be able to learn to shoot LR; most of them ended up having to sell the rifle because all it did was sit in safe. So in the end, because they had to take a loss, because everybody wants their rifle a little different and won't pay what you did for it, so it costs you money. Just some food for thought.

[FJR86]

You make excellent points. I think I will slowly build up a factory rifle. As my experience and skills improve, so will the rifle's performance.

I've heard good things about the 700 Police capable of 1/2 moa out of the box and under $1k.