Israeli hand to hand - Mr. Stuart's Martial Arts?

[Kratos]

My friend and I were looking to get into some mma training for self defense. He lives in West Chester, and I'm in lower Delco. He has a place right by his house that he says teaches Israeli hand to hand combat, Mr. Stuart's Martial Arts.

First, I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this school, and what their opinion is of it, or if they know of a better one in our area.

Second, all I know about Israeli hand to hand is what I've read, and a few people at the gym telling me about it. It sounds geared towards practicality and street fights, which sounds good to me, but there could be drawbacks I'm not aware of. If anyone has any experience with this, could you give me your opinions on it.

Thanks,

[Kb! Bob]

I am looking into the same basic type of training. I found a place out my way that teaches Gracie Combatives, but I'm interested to see what kind of responses you get to this.

[Ronin]

My friend and I were looking to get into some mma training for self defense. He lives in West Chester, and I'm in lower Delco. He has a place right by his house that he says teaches Israeli hand to hand combat, Mr. Stuart's Martial Arts.

First, I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this school, and what their opinion is of it, or if they know of a better one in our area.

Second, all I know about Israeli hand to hand is what I've read, and a few people at the gym telling me about it. It sounds geared towards practicality and street fights, which sounds good to me, but there could be drawbacks I'm not aware of. If anyone has any experience with this, could you give me your opinions on it.

Thanks,

It's called Krav Maga. It's designed to teach a novice how to defend themselves fairly quickly. Like any martial art it requires dedication and discipline to properly learn and remember the techniques. It's a great workout and depending on the school can be downright brutal.

The big Krav Maga school around is Premiere Martial Arts in Glen Mills. Unfortunately, they also charge big prices as they've become more of a "celebrity martial arts studio."

Looking at Mr. Stuart's site, he calls his style "Haganah" which is not a style at all but rather the name of the group of freedom fighters that later became the IDF. Most likely he's teaching Krav Maga or some MMA. There's nothing wrong with that provided he's teaching you proper technique. The best thing to do is to see if you can sit in on or participate in a class.

I've heard good things about John Williams' school in Downingtown. He used to be affiliated with the guys from Premiere Martial Arts when they were still Krav Maga PA; though I'm not sure why they split.

Good luck.

[Tomcat088]

My friend and I were looking to get into some mma training for self defense. He lives in West Chester, and I'm in lower Delco. He has a place right by his house that he says teaches Israeli hand to hand combat, Mr. Stuart's Martial Arts.

First, I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this school, and what their opinion is of it, or if they know of a better one in our area.

Second, all I know about Israeli hand to hand is what I've read, and a few people at the gym telling me about it. It sounds geared towards practicality and street fights, which sounds good to me, but there could be drawbacks I'm not aware of. If anyone has any experience with this, could you give me your opinions on it.

Thanks,

I'm not in PA, so I have no experience with the studio that you're speaking of. I'm guessing that the "Israeli" martial art you're speaking of, is most likely Krav Maga. If that is the case, I'd be able to give you some more information. I have been a Krav Maga practitioner since late 2001. I have studied various martial arts that I'm not going to get into in an open forum, but if you're curious about those, I'll be happy to speak with you in PM's about it.

IF we are talking about Krav Maga, then what you are being told is correct. It is a practical based martial art that has influences from various styles and "street fights". The system is based on instinctual movements, and is NOT a wrote system like some other more traditional styles. It's a style that you can become reasonably proficient in a pretty short amount of time, IF you will dedicate yourself to your training and go consistently. I enjoyed Krav Maga and how practical it is, although because I am also a traditional martial arts practitioner, I did miss some of what goes along with that. The feel in the dojo that I studied Krav Maga at was not nearly as "disciplined" as a traditional dojo, which is ok to some people, just "lax" for me. I also felt that while the style is effective, it's a bit "crude" and most of the time the technique isn't stressed or emphasized to the smallest point. In traditional martial arts, the forms and the way that you do something is VERY important, even to the smallest detail. In Krav Maga, they're not as concerned with the finest detail, but teaching as a whole, and ingraining the fighting spirit.

The system works well, and it is effective. I mean, the reality is that when you're in a full on street fight, lots of the small minute aspects of your training will sometimes give way to "doing what you gotta do." If you've trained a lot and stayed up with your training and full contact training, some of those nuances WILL stay with you. So it's kind of a trade off. You get a system that isn't quite as "polished", but does work well and you can learn reasonably quickly, but it's not as polished. What this means is that the techniques aren't perfect, and if by some chance you were fighting with a martial artist that was VERY well school in a particular style, you may present an opening to that person. To a normal person or fighter, even a traditional martial artist who was a bit rusty or not actively practicing, this would probably not be the case. I just bring up this point because it's my honest opinion of the style. My personal style isn't that far from much of what is taught in Krav Maga, it's just a bit more polished up and technical. I DO think it's a good style, and a good place for someone to get introduced to practical fighting styles.

There are FAR worse styles to start studying than Krav Maga. I like Krav Maga because it's something that you can begin to train in and pick up quickly. As you get higher up in the style, they will begin to go back through what you've known before, and start to stress some of the smaller "polished" aspects, and you will do LOTS of mental training. This is one of the most important things, because a warrior's true strength comes from their mind, and it carrying over to the body. It's just a different approach that traditional systems that stress all the fine and polished aspects early, so that they do not have to go back to it. It's not necessarily better or worse, just different. Your training WILL be with at least some sparring and hand to hand. You will be holding bags while your training partner it hitting it as hard as they can. This helps your body get conditioned to take a hit, and it will make you hard. If you have a proper dojo, you will have minimal padding and do some hand to hand sparring, weapons, etc. It's the only real way that you learn what a real fight is like, and how things happen. Don't let it scare you, you're in the classroom, this is the place to work out the jitters so that you don't get schooled on the street. I do want to issue a word of warning. There have started to be quite a few dojos, that just like any other martial arts dojo who have become "black belt factories". Their main interest isn't in making strong proficient students, but making them feel good, training for "sport fighting", and awarding them belts. They're just in it for the money, and NOT for the art and teaching you what it takes to survive. IF this dojo is one of those places, RUN!!!! If you need help in how to spot these places, I'll be happy to help you recognize that.

Personally, I appreciate Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but I don't really respect it as a complete fighting system. This will offend some people, but it's the way that I see it. For the record, I don't view any one style as a complete fighting system, and I believe the most successful martial artists are the ones that study multiple styles, and learn what fits their particular skillset, body size, build, etc. best. I think that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is more of a sport than it is a practical fighting style. Sure they have some offensive moves, take downs, etc, but the style relies on the ground. They'll give you some statistics that 80-90% of street fights go to the ground. So why not have a system based on being on the ground, where "you can win even if you're on the bottom", etc. It's a bunch of hype and a sales pitch. It's true that ANY fighter needs to be proficient on the ground, or know how to get up off the ground; especially since lots of fights do go down to the ground. I still don't think having a style that is based mostly on the ground, is the best way to go if you're looking for a COMPLETE self defense system. Let me ask you this: What happens when you're grappling with one guy on the ground or trying to hurry up and put him in an arm barre, while his buddies is kicking you in the head or stabbing you in the back? The sad thing is that lots of times, fights don't just involve one person, they sometimes involve or almost involve multiple people. It's MUCH more in your favor if you're not tied up on the ground, and temporarily immobile. You may not be able to fight multiple opponents, especially if they're catching you by surprise, but you may be able to avoid their attack or run away if you're on your feet and mobile. Some will disagree, but I view Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as much more of a sport, or single opponent style; I just think there's better systems for personal defense. For those that think I'm a "hater", I also hold bets in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

I hope that this information helps you a bit, and please feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. I'll be happy to talk about most things in this thread, but there are a few things that I'd prefer to talk about in PM's.

[Kratos]

I'm not in PA, so I have no experience with the studio that you're speaking of. I'm guessing that the "Israeli" martial art you're speaking of, is most likely Krav Maga. If that is the case, I'd be able to give you some more information. I have been a Krav Maga practitioner since late 2001. I have studied various martial arts that I'm not going to get into in an open forum, but if you're curious about those, I'll be happy to speak with you in PM's about it.

IF we are talking about Krav Maga, then what you are being told is correct. It is a practical based martial art that has influences from various styles and "street fights". The system is based on instinctual movements, and is NOT a wrote system like some other more traditional styles. It's a style that you can become reasonably proficient in a pretty short amount of time, IF you will dedicate yourself to your training and go consistently. I enjoyed Krav Maga and how practical it is, although because I am also a traditional martial arts practitioner, I did miss some of what goes along with that. The feel in the dojo that I studied Krav Maga at was not nearly as "disciplined" as a traditional dojo, which is ok to some people, just "lax" for me. I also felt that while the style is effective, it's a bit "crude" and most of the time the technique isn't stressed or emphasized to the smallest point. In traditional martial arts, the forms and the way that you do something is VERY important, even to the smallest detail. In Krav Maga, they're not as concerned with the finest detail, but teaching as a whole, and ingraining the fighting spirit.

The system works well, and it is effective. I mean, the reality is that when you're in a full on street fight, lots of the small minute aspects of your training will sometimes give way to "doing what you gotta do." If you've trained a lot and stayed up with your training and full contact training, some of those nuances WILL stay with you. So it's kind of a trade off. You get a system that isn't quite as "polished", but does work well and you can learn reasonably quickly, but it's not as polished. What this means is that the techniques aren't perfect, and if by some chance you were fighting with a martial artist that was VERY well school in a particular style, you may present an opening to that person. To a normal person or fighter, even a traditional martial artist who was a bit rusty or not actively practicing, this would probably not be the case. I just bring up this point because it's my honest opinion of the style. My personal style isn't that far from much of what is taught in Krav Maga, it's just a bit more polished up and technical. I DO think it's a good style, and a good place for someone to get introduced to practical fighting styles.

There are FAR worse styles to start studying than Krav Maga. I like Krav Maga because it's something that you can begin to train in and pick up quickly. As you get higher up in the style, they will begin to go back through what you've known before, and start to stress some of the smaller "polished" aspects, and you will do LOTS of mental training. This is one of the most important things, because a warrior's true strength comes from their mind, and it carrying over to the body. It's just a different approach that traditional systems that stress all the fine and polished aspects early, so that they do not have to go back to it. It's not necessarily better or worse, just different. Your training WILL be with at least some sparring and hand to hand. You will be holding bags while your training partner it hitting it as hard as they can. This helps your body get conditioned to take a hit, and it will make you hard. If you have a proper dojo, you will have minimal padding and do some hand to hand sparring, weapons, etc. It's the only real way that you learn what a real fight is like, and how things happen. Don't let it scare you, you're in the classroom, this is the place to work out the jitters so that you don't get schooled on the street. I do want to issue a word of warning. There have started to be quite a few dojos, that just like any other martial arts dojo who have become "black belt factories". Their main interest isn't in making strong proficient students, but making them feel good, training for "sport fighting", and awarding them belts. They're just in it for the money, and NOT for the art and teaching you what it takes to survive. IF this dojo is one of those places, RUN!!!! If you need help in how to spot these places, I'll be happy to help you recognize that.

Personally, I appreciate Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but I don't really respect it as a complete fighting system. This will offend some people, but it's the way that I see it. For the record, I don't view any one style as a complete fighting system, and I believe the most successful martial artists are the ones that study multiple styles, and learn what fits their particular skillset, body size, build, etc. best. I think that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is more of a sport than it is a practical fighting style. Sure they have some offensive moves, take downs, etc, but the style relies on the ground. They'll give you some statistics that 80-90% of street fights go to the ground. So why not have a system based on being on the ground, where "you can win even if you're on the bottom", etc. It's a bunch of hype and a sales pitch. It's true that ANY fighter needs to be proficient on the ground, or know how to get up off the ground; especially since lots of fights do go down to the ground. I still don't think having a style that is based mostly on the ground, is the best way to go if you're looking for a COMPLETE self defense system. Let me ask you this: What happens when you're grappling with one guy on the ground or trying to hurry up and put him in an arm barre, while his buddies is kicking you in the head or stabbing you in the back? The sad thing is that lots of times, fights don't just involve one person, they sometimes involve or almost involve multiple people. It's MUCH more in your favor if you're not tied up on the ground, and temporarily immobile. You may not be able to fight multiple opponents, especially if they're catching you by surprise, but you may be able to avoid their attack or run away if you're on your feet and mobile. Some will disagree, but I view Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as much more of a sport, or single opponent style; I just think there's better systems for personal defense. For those that think I'm a "hater", I also hold bets in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

I hope that this information helps you a bit, and please feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. I'll be happy to talk about most things in this thread, but there are a few things that I'd prefer to talk about in PM's.

Thank you for the time you put into that. I appriciate the expertise you bring to this discussion.

Yes, I was talking about Krav Maga. In person, I've only heard it referred to Israeli hand to hand, but that was only with talking to people who correctly assumed my limited knowledge.

I was originally looking into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but I do understand the limitations you mentioned. I like how you described Krav Maga's approach to teaching all the techniques, then going back and refining them. It sounds more enjoyable to those, like myself, with ADD, and more importantly, it sounds more practical.

What does concern me, is I realize I would not be able to spot a bad instructor. The place I mentioned earlier offers the first class for free, and my friend and I were planning on checking it out tomorrow. What should I look out for?

[Wiley-X]

Looking at Mr. Stuart's site, he calls his style "Haganah" which is not a style at all . . .

Oh really?

http://www.haganah-usa.com/

http://www.usadojo.com/styles/about-haganah.htm

http://www.martialartscenters.com/haganah.php

Haganah means defense.

[Ronin]

Oh really?

http://www.haganah-usa.com/

http://www.usadojo.com/styles/about-haganah.htm

http://www.martialartscenters.com/haganah.php

Haganah means defense.

Yep, Haganah is Hebrew for "defense." So what? It's not a style of martial arts it's the name of the group that became the the IDF (Tzva Hahagana LeYisra'el) - who use......wait for it....KRAV MAGA!

If you watch any of the videos associated with "Haganah Martial Arts" you will see that they are using the same hand to hand techniques as Krav Maga. They roll in additional gun and knife techniques and call it something other than Krav Maga because they're not affiliated with any official Krav organization. It's still Krav Maga.

[Helter]

Yep, Haganah is Hebrew for "defense." So what? It's not a style of martial arts it's the name of the group that became the the IDF (Tzva Hahagana LeYisra'el) - who use......wait for it....KRAV MAGA!

If you watch any of the videos associated with "Haganah Martial Arts" you will see that they are using the same hand to hand techniques as Krav Maga. They roll in additional gun and knife techniques and call it something other than Krav Maga because they're not affiliated with any official Krav organization. It's still Krav Maga.

Kinda like how strawberry ice cream isn't a flavor of ice cream, because it's just ice cream with strawberry's rolled in.
Right?

[son of the revolution]

To the OP, IMHO you cant go wrong for a "real life " practical self defense martial art to learn with Krav. Tomcat already covered it very well in his post, so I wont rehash. I've done some informal Krav training over the years to supplement the Tae Kwan Do I took WAY to long ago, but I just spoke to a Krav school near me yesterday and plan on joining soon to get the formal and more advanced training I need. Good Luck and enjoy it !

[Kratos]

call it something other than Krav Maga because they're not affiliated with any official Krav organization. It's still Krav Maga.

Should that be avoided?