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Thread: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
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August 20th, 2010, 10:40 PM #11
Re: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
You can give my POF 416 a go any time you want. i have over 5,000 rounds down the pipe without one issue, one time i did 7 consecutive mag dumps, 210 rounds, as fast as could be bump fired and mags changed without one issue using Silver Bear ammo on new years eve. i then pulled the BCG out right after the last round and held it in my hand, cool as can be. it was clean and no fouling in the upper receiver at all.
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August 20th, 2010, 10:44 PM #12
Re: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
Jeff Cooper was a huge supporter of gun games, when he was winning them at least...
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August 21st, 2010, 02:03 AM #13Grand Member
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Re: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
Touchy subject, it appears.
I don't own a piston driven AR. Don't know much about them. They might be the next best thing to sliced bread,,,,,dunno.
I do know about the DI AR that I have. That leads me to respond to a number of comments that I just read in a few of the posts above.
The business about having to scrape carbon, etc., every time I want to shoot. Not.
I have a Colt Match Target AR......i use it pretty seriously and have since I bought it about twenty years ago. I just don't understand that scrape the carbon idea. I don't. The gun works. It always works. No failures ever. And I clean it....whenever. Don't get me wrong....I do clean it but I'm not anal about it - and not after every use. I cleaned the bolt, etc. today.
Took maybe three minutes - no problems with the gun beforehand (it was shooting Xring groups at 200 yards yesterday).
Thus I disagree with that idea that the piston AR offers a distinct advantage to most AR owners.....If my DI works perfectly well, then the piston - however nice it is - offers me no advantages.
Pete“Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.”Hemingway ...
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August 21st, 2010, 01:48 PM #14
Re: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
Well, I suppose I should chime in, since that POF 'going down' was mine. It was crappy ammo.
The case deformed badly upon firing (expansion), and locked up the works as it were. The gorilla assistant to Grant was finally able to work it loose, before ye olde mortaring was tried. FWIW, that was the first time I'd EVER had a case deform that badly, in either a DI or piston rifle. And I've owned & shot AR's since 1991. Sometimes, crap-o-la happens.
If my POF goes down in an emergency, I just reach for another.
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August 21st, 2010, 04:16 PM #15Junior Member
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Re: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
I apologize for my heated responses, as I had you confused with the other individual who kept throwing quick insults at me without adding anything constructive to the conversation. I think ive spouted off enough here, but I hope that I was able to at least provide some information that hadnt been talked about much in the thread. Take care.
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August 21st, 2010, 06:28 PM #16
Do's & DON'TS on piston AR ownership
I've owned DI rifles for almost 20 years now. I own three right now in fact, and am working towards getting an LMT carbine upper to complete my fourth.
I have also owned a POF-415 for over two years now; it is a VERY nice rifle - well made, of quality components - but it is NOT perfect; nor did it come from the factory 'up-to-snuff,' in my estimation. Upgrades I've made to it, since aquiring it.
1) replaced the Timney single-stage trigger, with a Rock River 2-stage - a better trigger for a CQB weapon, than the the Timney's match/target style trigger. Yeah, a Geissele Trigger WOULD have been better - I'm WORKING on that!
2) replaced the milspec buffer tube, with a PWS enhanced buffer tube. Like MOST piston rifles, buffer tube erosion was already showing after 200 rounds of brass-cased, quality ammo (Homey is an ammo snob - I don't do steel-cased ammo, outside of my AK)! Seth Harness' anti-tilt buffer is NEXT on the list of upgrades!
3) replaced the carbine spring and buffer, with a Dave Tubb's SSS flatwire spring, & G&R Tactical H2 buffer. The unique nature of piston rifle recoil makes such upgrades highly desribale, if not a necessity!
4) BCM bolt upgrade, especially as POF stuck a blue (rifle) insert into the ejector spring!
5) replaced the Vltor clubfoot stock, with a Vltor EMod, to try and balance it out weight-wise (weighs about as much as an unloaded Garand now - something to keep in mind if you want to own one).
6) replaced the POF front sight, with Troy BUIS (G3-style front sight)
7) replaced the charger with a BCM/Vltor Gunfighter Mod.4 (medium) charger
As you can see, even a high-end piston rifle, STILL needs tweaking, to get it 'up-to-snuff.'
Does it run cleaner, with that eletroless nickle chamber? ABSOLUTELY! But where does the dirt GO? Out the front, by the front sight, under and around the rails. Dirt doesn't magically "disappear" - it's GOTTA go somewhere, and it's STILL gotta be cleaned. Everything's a tradeoff in life - piston rifles are no different.
All this said, here's a few DO'S and DON'TS I've come up with, after 2 years of piston AR ownership;
- DON'T buy a piston AR, if it's going to be your ONLY AR - you'll be better served by a QUALITY DI rifle for the price!
- DON'T buy a piston AR, if it's your FIRST AR - learn the family, before you start branching out into different species!
- DON'T buy a piston AR, if you're lazy and just don't like cleaning your AR - a piston rifle is still a mechanical device, which mixes dirt and oil in hard-to-reach places. You WILL be breaking down the rifle to clean it, or the rifle WILL break down! This is a fact of life, whether you're dealing with automobiles, refridgerators, or AR-15's. CLEAN them, or LOSE them.
- DON'T buy a piston rifle, if you like your AR's light & compact. They are bulky and heavy, particularly in the nose, and unless you can change the atomic structure of metal , nothing in the world will CHANGE that.
- DON'T buy an AR, if you're enamored of rail systems that DON'T come with it. The piston/op-rod CANNOT be reshaped, and if you simply MUST have a Daniel Defense Omega rail on your rifle, you're in for some BIG disappointment!
- DON'T buy a piston AR, if you think you're getting a 'Star Trek phaser on setting 16.' It ain't. Like all firearms, it may - or may NOT - be made of better quality material, and to tighter tolerances, but it will still only be as accurate as the man behind the trigger!
All that said, there are some "DO's" to piston rifle ownership, if you are so inclined!
- DO buy the best quality rifle/upper you can. LWRC & POF are tops in my book - LMT & Addax are VERY good as well! This rule holds true for MOST things in life. Drop-in conversions can be kinda shakey - you're modifying a rifle that WASN'T designed with a piston in mind. This stresses pieces and parts in unexpected ways, which can lead to unexpected breakages! Better to get an actual rifle/upper designed from the ground up, with the piston in mind.
- DO buy a piston rifle, if you're already familiar with the AR platform, and would like to try something different!
- DO buy a piston AR, if it is your second (or more) AR!
- DO push your piston AR - take it to training, & find out how it handles under stress, so that you can find out what it'll really DO! Or, NOT do!
- DO lube your piston AR. The marketing department's job is to sell air conditioners to Eskimos - YOUR job, is to make sure your rifle is in PRIME OPERATING CONDITION at all times! If your mfg. says it "never needs lube," then let THEM run THEIRS that way. That advice, is NOT intended for you!
- DO clean your rifle! This better be self-explanatory by NOW!
- DO learn your stand-off (hold-over) QUICKLY! That higher rail - to accomodate your piston/op-rod - makes a difference. A BIG difference!!! At seven yards, putting my dot over the heart, results in a shot BETWEEN THE EYES! If you DON'T think this is important, or you don't want to learn different standoffs between different platforms, then DON'T mess with a piston rifle.
- DO read the instruction manual; it AIN'T the same as your DI rifle, the internals ARE different, and if you DON'T know this, and something breaks, you're going to end up with a VERY expensive club.
In conclusion, for the EXPERIENCED AR afficianado, the piston rifle is as pleasant a diversion, as a redhead is to a blonde to Agent 007. But the piston rifle accomplishes NOTHING that a quality DI rifle can't do, it DOES have some unusual eccentricities that MUST be accounted for (buffer tube erosion, sight stand-off, etc.), and a good one, AIN'T cheap. Knowing these things BEFOREHAND, you too can own one, & be free to say with a straight face, "To each his OWN."
Caveat emptor.
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August 21st, 2010, 08:04 PM #17
Re: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
So War_Wagon, would you say that your DI guns are less reliable in the conditions you and I might see? Would you trust the 416 more?
Jeff Cooper was a huge supporter of gun games, when he was winning them at least...
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August 21st, 2010, 08:30 PM #18
Re: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
i had great luck with a Bushmaster DI weapon, it was very abused and performed excellent.
In basic training i had a Colt M4 that was horrible. in fact the whole platoon had trouble and was disapointed with their weapons. we cleaned them alot, white glove inspection type stuff.
I'll stick with the M1 Garand, it does not seem to have these issuesLast edited by Ultramagnus; August 21st, 2010 at 08:32 PM.
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August 21st, 2010, 08:42 PM #19
Re: AR-15: DI vs Gas Piston, discuss
If I had to reach into my cabinet for A rifle - sight unseen - I would NOT feel uneasy about grabbing the 415 NOW; it is very reliable and accurate. NEITHER would I feel inadequate, if I grabbed my BCM middy, my M&P15T, nor my custom Addax/Noveske middy.
And if I KNOW trouble's coming, and HAVE time to prepare, HONESTLY - I'll go with one of the DI rifles first, because when it comes down to it, I know what's in 'em, and if something were to break on one of them, I'll better know what it is, BECAUSE of familiarity with the breed. And I think if an AR owner is honest, and has 20 years experience with AR's, you KNOW you're going to be more familiar with a DI rifle, than you will be with a piston rifle. That's true for everybody - you GO with what you KNOW.
I'm NOT ditching my POF - I don't feel inadequate with it (unless I get tired from lugging it about!!! ) - but if the chips are down, you GO with what you know the BEST. Or what you SHOULD know the best!!!
YMMV.
p.s. - interesting about conditions; since we also did some training this past January in single digit temperatures, the POF was flawless, and one DI gun did sieze up (lack of lube!), so maybe the POF gets a slight nod in the cold. I was out pushing it though, because this is stuff I HAVE to know if I'm going to own one. That's the NICE thing about a DI rifle, and ESPECIALLY to someone new to the breed. It's a MUCH more known quantity to start with!!!Last edited by The_War_Wagon; August 21st, 2010 at 08:46 PM.
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August 21st, 2010, 11:36 PM #20
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