Is it true the h&k mk23 is discontinued?

[MichaelVain]

I was at WAWA on rte 309s and pumping station rd, I believe, maybe not pumping station but somewhere right there, Whatever that PD would be has USP's. I saw the butt of the grip sticking out and knew right away what it was. Dont recall caliber but kinda shot the shit with'em for a minute at the coffee station and he said it was issued and liked it alot, no complaints. So sorry for the vagueness but there's one

309 and Pumping Station is Richland Township, that is my town. The RTPD use the USP45, DAO/LEM.

[brownman]

Nice man, I knew somebody would be able to clear that up/ know where the hell I was talking about. Im located in Whitehall and was just working out that way so I'm not real familiar with that area. Thanks for info

[MichaelVain]

Also, just an FYI for those who are interested in "what's next" for US Naval Special Warfare (NSW), here is what G3Kurz on HKPRO had to say.

"The new .45 ACP pistol for US Naval Special Warfare is the HK45 Compact with threaded barrel and compact AAC can. 450 are on delivery for October. Officially it is called "MK24". This is a full circle success from the early days before the SCP (SOCOM Pistol Program) in the early 2000's with the USP45CT for WARCOM - great to see. Bets are that it will spread throughout USSOCOM being that the Army has once again cancelled the Modular Handgun System program due to funding issues as of May 2010."

When asked about markings on the slide and barrel, G3Kurz followed up with this comment.

"I don't have that level of detail at the moment LSP. When we first started down this road with the USP45CT WARCOM wanted them in LEM 5 lb. My guess based on who is receiving these is that some will want LEM's and some V3's (SA/DA w/ decocking lever). Even better is that those who want a V1 (SA only w/ manual thumb safety) can have that too. This was the original concept for the MK23 MOD 0 that HK wanted SOCOM to consider (USP style modularity and controls) but the detailed specifications did not allow it. As they say if you set out to design a race car with a committee you will get one that does everything but no one thing very well (e.g. a camel). The MK24 was selected as a test of COTS candidates versus building one anew from the ground up (MK23). I can only guess that the troops will be well served by this platform and with the cancellation of the Army's new handgun program, this comes at the right time (if not 7-10 years later then it should have). More bads guys being killed "deader" - priceless!"

It seems the new HK pistol is supposed to be a scaled down version of the Mk23.

[billt]

another thing, how come no one bashes the prices of sig's they are just as much money.

I think part of the reason is for the money Sig Sauer makes guns that look like this. Beautifully crafted out of Stainless Steel with nicely fitted wooden grips.



While for close to the same price H&K makes plastic ones that look like this.



Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing H&K. I wouldn't own one if I thought they were a rip off. I do think they are somewhat overpriced for what you get. The USP is a very reliable Polymer framed pistol. So is a Glock for over 25% less. I bought my USP because I liked the ergonomics, and I didn't own an H&K handgun, so I figured it was time to find out what all the hoopla was about.

With all of that said, I doubt I'll be jumping on the H&K bandwagon again anytime soon. That is because for the money I can find nicer pistols to buy. The other thing that kind of pisses me off about them is their holier than thou, buyer be damned attitude. My H&K runs like a top, and feels good in my hand. But again so do all of my Glocks, and for a lot less coin too boot. Bill T.

[MichaelVain]

With all due respect, the picture you showed is a $950+ SIG 226 Elite. USP 9's are going for around $750 and less.

I think a fairer comparison would be the new P30 by HK. P30's are going for about $850.

I agree that metal framed SIG pistols can be pretty when they are dressed up. As I mentioned I have a few SIG's and I love them. My only gripe is that the finish on my SIGs are not as tough as I expect them to be.

I don't own a Glock so I can't comment on their robustness first hand, but the engineering and robustness of HKs are well known. Todd Green from pistol-training.com torture tested a P30 shooting 91K+ rounds in 322 days. The report can be seen here.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

Bill, I agree that in the past it seemed that HK didn't seem to have much respect for the average civilian customer. However, I think alot of that has changed. Customer service feedback comments on the various websites has indicated that HK CS has improved dramatically. My own experience with Travis at HK CS was very good. There is still that perception out there however that HK CS is not good. I think it will take some time before the HK-bashers will be convinced that today's HK customer service is not your dad's old HK's customer service.

It's good times to be a shooter. There are so many reputable companies with all kinds of pistols in so many configurations and looks. Personal preference is always subjective, but I think we can all agree that most of the major manufacturers are putting out quality pistols.

[billt]

With all due respect, the picture you showed is a $950+ SIG 226 Elite. USP 9's are going for around $750 and less.

I think a fairer comparison would be the new P30 by HK. P30's are going for about $850.

Regardless of which models you care to compare, Polymer is molded and steel is machined. The amount of manufacturing time to produce a steel framed gun as opposed to a Polymer weapon is not reflected in the price of an H&K. A full size Glock can be had for $550.00. A decent 1911 like a mid grade Springfield Armory or Kimber will run twice that. That is an honest reflection in price because of the manufacturing time and costs involved in the steel framed gun. H&K charges steel gun prices for injection molded frame weapons. That is too hard to justify in my opinion. I paid it once. I won't again. Bill T.

[MichaelVain]

I understand your opinion. I agree that just the manufacturing cost of an HK is would not be justified by the price.

However, you are forgetting R&D costs that are built into the pistols. HK manufactures and does R&D on a whole host of weapon systems, everything from pistols to subguns to assault rifles to the GMG, grenade launcher. R&D costs are always built into products, this is evident in almost all manufacturing processes.

I am not saying that HK's are or are not worth their cost, only the purchaser can make that determination with their money. I am saying that to just take the manufacturing process and material costs into the consideration of a price of a product, may be too simplistic.

[billt]

Every mass produced firearm has developmental and engineering costs associated with it's production. The fewer guns sold, the higher these costs are per gun. In the case of injection molded Polymer framed pistols you have the cost of designing the mold, and the cost of it's production. In a mass produced steel pistol frame there are tooling and fixturing costs. Both are expensive.

However, once the mold is designed and built for a Polymer framed gun, production can take place at a very cost effective, and extremely rapid rate allowing the manufacturer to recoup it's investment in very short order. Not so with the steel, or even the Aluminum framed gun. Production is much slower in comparison. Also there is a lot of deburring, inspection, and fitting that takes place after machining is complete. There are also hard coatings and Anodizing that are required, usually by outside sources that add even more to the already high production costs.

Also, once a molded Polymer framed pistol emerges from the mold, it's done. All that remains is some basic go-no go inspection, along with a serial number tag implant, and from there it's straight to assembly. When you look at the steps and processes a steel framed gun like a 1911 must endure, it's a wonder they can sell it so inexpensively. On the other hand when you understand the injection molding process involved with all of these Polymer framed guns, it's a wonder they can actually get away with charging what they do for them. Bill T.

[marinville]

Personally, I have no issue with the cost of my USP. I have no reservations about buying another HK pistol. I believe it is a high quality designed pistol that is built like a tank and I would trust it with my life, regardless of the simplicity of the manufacturing process. And I wouldn't trade it for any sig or 1911, regardless of the complexity of its manufacturing process.

[gumbys1up]

IMO you couldn't give me a mark23. yes it does this and that and BLAH BLAH BLAH. good luck tryin to ever get parts for it if it breaks.

And lets be logical, shit does break, regardless of who makes it. I shot my buddys USP fullsize with the threaded barrel in 45acp and I never want to shoot it agian. Anyone who thinks that, or the mrk23, weapon is practical or a smart idea IMO is retarded.

ITS WAY!!!! TO BIG. even compared to a XD tactical or a bigger glock. ITS massive and FAR to big for anyone to carry practically not to mention I see it pointless for a civilian anyways not only because its a over priced POS. but your not going to be swimming throught the amazon and jumping outta planes. Someone like a SEAL or a RECON will be. this is of course besides the fact that its designed to be used with gloves on (hince the bigger trigger guard) so shooting it un-gloved I feel as though im holding a BIG ass brick. with a stupid way to release the mags. and yeah even for the USP he paid 1200 and !!NO NIGHT SIGHTS!! i laughed in his face.

But all things aside the price is what blew me away. I read that i almost shit my pants. as stated before there are ALOT better options out there for that price. It shot very nice and handled well.. but it better for $2,000 so im not impressed. go read my review on my XDtactical to the HK uSP45. I honestly do not care for them.

And I hope they discontinue them. they need to get back to basics.