Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    (Allegheny County)
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    Default PICS Challenge Form Question

    Hello all,

    I recently applied via email for a LTCF through the Allegheny County Sheriff. I received in the mail a letter stating that I had been denied by the Pennsylvania State Police for an undisclosed reason. Included with the letter was a PA State Police PICS Challenge form, Form SP 4-197 (10-2008).

    As I was filling out the Challenge form, I noticed a subtle, but very important difference in the language between the application I downloaded from the Sheriff's site and the Challenge form I was sent [link to pdf].

    From Question 32 on the original application:

    ARE YOU NOW CHARGED WITH, OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME PUNISHABLE BY IMPRISONMENT FOR A TERM EXCEEDING ONE YEAR?
    And from Prohibition 2 on the challenge form:

    Charged with or convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, not including offenses pertaining to antitrust, unfair trade practices, restraints of trade, or regulation of business; or state offenses classified as misdemeanors and punishable by a term of imprisonment not to exceed two years.
    Unfortunately, this is not an academic matter for myself. In the past, I have been charged with crimes that could have carried a maximum term of imprisonment over a year. Thankfully, such incidents have ended with charges dropped or reduced to a summary conviction.

    My interpretation of the two quotes is that the application prohibits a LTCF for those currently under indictment, while the challenge form prohibits anyone from applying for one that has ever had charges, regardless of the outcome.

    Has anyone else run into a similar situation? I figure I should call the PSP Monday morning, but if just having been charged would prevent me from submitting the challenge form, I'd rather not waste their time on the phone.

    I've been following the forums for a while and there seems to be a great wealth of experience here. Any and all insight is much appreciated.

    Rhodes

  2. #2
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    Don't talk to anyone until you see a lawyer specializing in gun cases. Anything you say could be used against you.

    That includes posting any further information here. You do not want to further harm any possible chance you have of legally owning a firearm.

    IANAL - but I've read enough of these posts to know that you need to be quiet. Right now. Good luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Hello all,

    I recently applied via email for a LTCF through the Allegheny County Sheriff. I received in the mail a letter stating that I had been denied by the Pennsylvania State Police for an undisclosed reason. Included with the letter was a PA State Police PICS Challenge form, Form SP 4-197 (10-2008).

    As I was filling out the Challenge form, I noticed a subtle, but very important difference in the language between the application I downloaded from the Sheriff's site and the Challenge form I was sent [link to pdf].

    From Question 32 on the original application:



    And from Prohibition 2 on the challenge form:



    Unfortunately, this is not an academic matter for myself. In the past, I have been charged with crimes that could have carried a maximum term of imprisonment over a year. Thankfully, such incidents have ended with charges dropped or reduced to a summary conviction.

    My interpretation of the two quotes is that the application prohibits a LTCF for those currently under indictment, while the challenge form prohibits anyone from applying for one that has ever had charges, regardless of the outcome.

    Has anyone else run into a similar situation? I figure I should call the PSP Monday morning, but if just having been charged would prevent me from submitting the challenge form, I'd rather not waste their time on the phone.

    I've been following the forums for a while and there seems to be a great wealth of experience here. Any and all insight is much appreciated.

    Rhodes

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2010
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    Butler, Pennsylvania
    (Butler County)
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    I would be tempted to use the form that was sent with your denial or see if the PSP web site has the form. Who knowns the last time the sheriff's web site was updated.

    As far as discussing the matter, there's no problem asking about the forms, meaning, etc. just don't post about your past/present situation.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by DonM55 View Post
    I would be tempted to use the form that was sent with your denial or see if the PSP web site has the form. Who knowns the last time the sheriff's web site was updated.

    As far as discussing the matter, there's no problem asking about the forms, meaning, etc. just don't post about your past/present situation.
    But if he fills out ANY form without checking things out with a lawyer, he could be considered to be lying, or the answers could permanently bar him from owning a firearm.

    NO advice here can substitute for a legal evaluation.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Brookville, Pennsylvania
    (Jefferson County)
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    All you have to do is explain what the final deposition were for the prior events. If you have have copies of the judgments, just provide a copy and a written statement of the outcome of the trials or charges.

    Sometimes the arrest records dont show the outcome, thus "appear" to be open yet.

    Remember too, you only have like 20 or 30 days to appeal - so dont waste your time getting your appeal back in.
    Last edited by knight0334; August 8th, 2010 at 12:33 AM.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot

  6. #6
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    City in, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    Unless the form sent to you by the sheriff has a later date than the one that you linked to (10-2008), I would go with that 2008 one.

    It's always best to go with the latest form and the one you linked to is right from the PSP Firearms unit.
    Does the gun watewrproof?

  7. #7
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    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    Thank you all for the input. I realize I should I have linked the application from the Sheriff's site [Link to pdf]. This form seems to be the most up-to-date one out there.

    Yes, I am hesitant about sending in the challenge form without being more certain about the meaning of that section - I'd really rather not give anyone the idea that I was attempting to make false statements.

    Looks like I'll be calling the PSP Monday morning and asking for clarification.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Brookville, Pennsylvania
    (Jefferson County)
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Thank you all for the input. I realize I should I have linked the application from the Sheriff's site [Link to pdf]. This form seems to be the most up-to-date one out there.

    Yes, I am hesitant about sending in the challenge form without being more certain about the meaning of that section - I'd really rather not give anyone the idea that I was attempting to make false statements.

    Looks like I'll be calling the PSP Monday morning and asking for clarification.
    Ask yourself these questions, should you answer yes to any of them you are prohibited from receiving a LTCF.

    1. Are you charged with a felony?
    2. Are you charged with a state misdemeanor that you could receive a punishment of 2 years or more?
    3. Have you been convicted of ANY drug offense regardless of level of crime?
    4. Have you been convicted of ANY misdemeanor or higher crime of domestic violence?
    5. Have you been convicted of any felony?
    6. Have you been convicted of any state misdemeanor which you could have received more than 2 years? (M1's)
    7. Have you been convicted of any crime listed in PA's 6105, or of a similar crime in another state regardless of possible sentence?

    If you'd like, you may PM me a list of prior events and I'll give you an honest opinion without any prejudice.
    Last edited by knight0334; August 8th, 2010 at 03:33 PM.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot

  9. #9
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    Mar 2007
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    City in, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Thank you all for the input. I realize I should I have linked the application from the Sheriff's site [Link to pdf]. This form seems to be the most up-to-date one out there.
    Actually, here is the latest LTCF application dated 10-2008.
    Does the gun watewrproof?

  10. #10
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    Default Re: PICS Challenge Form Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    Hello all,

    I recently applied via email for a LTCF through the Allegheny County Sheriff. I received in the mail a letter stating that I had been denied by the Pennsylvania State Police for an undisclosed reason. Included with the letter was a PA State Police PICS Challenge form, Form SP 4-197 (10-2008).

    As I was filling out the Challenge form, I noticed a subtle, but very important difference in the language between the application I downloaded from the Sheriff's site and the Challenge form I was sent [link to pdf].

    From Question 32 on the original application:



    And from Prohibition 2 on the challenge form:



    Unfortunately, this is not an academic matter for myself. In the past, I have been charged with crimes that could have carried a maximum term of imprisonment over a year. Thankfully, such incidents have ended with charges dropped or reduced to a summary conviction.

    My interpretation of the two quotes is that the application prohibits a LTCF for those currently under indictment, while the challenge form prohibits anyone from applying for one that has ever had charges, regardless of the outcome.

    Has anyone else run into a similar situation? I figure I should call the PSP Monday morning, but if just having been charged would prevent me from submitting the challenge form, I'd rather not waste their time on the phone.

    I've been following the forums for a while and there seems to be a great wealth of experience here. Any and all insight is much appreciated.

    Rhodes
    I had the same question issue with the challenge form wording. "Charged with" refers to at the time of the denial, not a charge you may have had previous that was dropped. I'm waiting on my challenge response right now.

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