Negative encounter with PPD this afternoon - schooled a Sgt. from the 39th

[MDJschool]

I was originally going to press charges, but it's be a waste of money and time

I didn't say I wasn't going to file a complaint - get your panties out of a bunch.

I apologize for not outright saying that I am filing a complaint and making that clear. Don't worry, I'll update when I have something filed.

Jeez, you people and your soapboxes, shit.

What exactly do you think 'pressing charges' means if not 'filing a private criminal complaint or causing a police criminal complaint to be filed'? Of course it's going to aggravate us to watch you to time and time again interact with criminals and appear to say you'll do nothing about it (yet apparently mean you'll do something about it). I think we're reasonably mistaken on that point, but yes even if you do nothing else we do appreciate you've made an OC log about this event.

If you want to be helpful and support the cause, I'd appreciate a little insight into how the process works for filing a complaint against a specific PPD LEO.

I don't have any specific PPD/PDA/PJ knowledge but here is the form and some useful annotations on the process:
http://www.aopc.org/NR/rdonlyres/5D8.../AOPC41110.pdf
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/798...submitted.html

[ViperGTS19801]

Okay, whoa whoa whoa. Hang on a second. MDJSchool, I think I have been doing something wrong here. I thought there was a different between "pressing charges" and "filing a complaint." It was my understanding that to file a complaint simply means to log an official grievance with the way someone in an official capacity behaved, versus filing chiarges, which is the whole drawn out process of getting a lawyer and sueing for damages.

If I am wrong, then I apologise.

Thanks for the links. I'm going through them now.

ETA: I see what the confusion is here. Thanks for the link to the complaint form - I'll be filling this out tonight. Is this something that needs to be notarized? Do I just drop it off at the 39th building? What do they do with it after it's been 'filed?'

ETA2: Read the damn thread, Viper, you moron. Disregard the above questions, let me finish reading first, lol.

[tdt91]

you have more rights there in Philly/PA then we have here in Marylandistan.
1st if you want to record someone or a conversation then permission has to be granted by all parties. In MD the cop could of said I don't consent and then the audio would not be valid.
2nd we can't even carry.

[Neo31rex31]

You had the biggest advantage on your side there, a recording. I wish i had that when i had my encounter.

[ViperGTS19801]

A new question, for those can answer it - Where does the filled out complaint need to be taken to be filed? To the district building where the officers are based out of? The DA's office?

[PennsyPlinker]

I am not going to address anything to do with the problem of the police behavior. There are people who are willing and able to put that time in. I will address the earbud issue though. Situational awareness is paramount when you are carrying openly. Why, it is paramount even when you aren't carrying. Did you see about the young man murdered in York the other night for his cell phone? Having your hand resting near or on your gun does nothing to enhance your auditory awareness. What makes you think that someone sneaking up on you to take your gun will restrict himself (herself) to just grabbing it and trying to get it out of your holster? It would be much easier just to knock you on the head and at the very least stun you.

Hearing what is going on around you is a valuable asset, and one that should not be traded away lightly. While I do not agree at all with the way you were treated by the officers, they had a valid point when it comes to someone coming up behind you. Next time it could be a gangsta who does not care a whit for your life, and who might just kill you for your MP3 player as much as for your gun. Think about that the next time you voluntarily place yourself in auditory isolation.

[MDJschool]

Okay, whoa whoa whoa. Hang on a second. MDJSchool, I think I have been doing something wrong here. I thought there was a different between "pressing charges" and "filing a complaint." It was my understanding that to file a complaint simply means to log an official grievance with the way someone in an official capacity behaved, versus filing chiarges, which is the whole drawn out process of getting a lawyer and sueing for damages.
[...]
ETA: I see what the confusion is here. Thanks for the link to the complaint form - I'll be filling this out tonight. Is this something that needs to be notarized? Do I just drop it off at the 39th building? What do they do with it after it's been 'filed?'

I'd go as far as to say that saying 'pressing charges' would be a disfavored term here since I'm not sure it has a specific meaning in the criminal process. There are actually civil complaints, criminal complaints, and what I'd call 'departmental complaints'. Within criminal complaints, there are 'private' and 'police'. The Rules of Criminal Procedure don't include the words 'press(ing) charges' anywhere but include such phrases as 'Instituting Proceedings in Court Cases' and 'Complaint Procedures Generally'. I suppose what I'm not clear on now is whether you are certain you are filing a criminal complaint or a departmental complaint. All my posts refer to a criminal complaint, for the officer(s) to be brought up through a criminal process just as any of us would be under allegation of any crime, and I hope that's what you're considering. You might even consider waiting to file a departmental complaint until after all planned criminal and civil proceedings take their course since having that information is probably only beneficial to the department and their code of silence (see the section on the PPD, lol.) and performing damage control.

I would suggest you prepare the text of a affidavit of probable cause and run it by someone (or this thread) to judge its probative value. While I often suggest working with the DA to file complaints rather that seeing your two positions adversarial, I don't know if that advice applies in Philly (much the same way the constitution seems not to apply the right to bear arms or prohibitions on class legislation). I do suggest writing in third-person rather than "I did this" or "that" to give it an air of exacting credibility. Also you should make an appendix of law that is perhaps not part of the affidavit itself but would make the DA's job as easy as possible. Doing their research for them has to go a ways to facilitating a prosecution. I'm sure some of us here can help pull up cases and statutes to improve that appendix. One thing to consider is that the probable cause the police always get away with is going to be much less (i.e. it often seems to me to be no more than RAS) than what is required of you (probably clear and convincing...wouldn't surprise me.)

As for the basic process (outside of Philly), I know Statkowski usually suggests filing the complaint straight with the MDJ who will then transmit it to the DA for approval, although I've always had trouble completely reconciling that order with the rules.
Rule 502. Instituting Proceedings in Court Cases.
Criminal proceedings in court cases shall be instituted by:
(1) filing a written complaint; or
Rule 503. Complaint Procedure Generally.
In every court case a complaint shall be filed with the appropriate issuing authority.
Rule 506. Approval of Private Complaints.
(A) When the affiant is not a law enforcement officer, the complaint shall be submitted to an attorney for the Commonwealth, who shall approve or disapprove it without unreasonable delay.
(B) If the attorney for the Commonwealth:
(1) approves the complaint, the attorney shall indicate this decision on the complaint form and transmit it to the issuing authority;
(2) disapproves the complaint, the attorney shall state the reasons on the complaint form and return it to the affiant. Thereafter, the affiant may petition the court of common pleas for review of the decision.
Note
The district attorney may ‘‘transmit’’ the complaint to the issuing authority pursuant to paragraph (B)(1) by returning it to the affiant for delivery.
Rule 508. Procedure Following Submission of Complaint to Issuing Authority.
(A) Before accepting a complaint for filing, the issuing authority shall ascertain and certify on the complaint that:
(1) the complaint has been properly completed and executed; and
(2) when prior submission to an attorney for the Commonwealth is required, an attorney has approved the complaint.
(B) Upon certification of the above matters, the issuing authority shall accept the complaint for filing, and the case shall proceed as otherwise provided in these rules.

As for the appropriate issuing authority in Philadelphia, I am reading through the Pa.Code. now to see...there is a section on the Philadelphia Municipal Court: http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/23...chap10toc.html
And so I will follow up.

[mingomom]

I have to say, this was my only negative thought as well. Otherwise, kudos for a successful, if stressful, encounter. (and yes, file a complaint! )

I am not going to address anything to do with the problem of the police behavior. There are people who are willing and able to put that time in. I will address the earbud issue though. Situational awareness is paramount when you are carrying openly. Why, it is paramount even when you aren't carrying. Did you see about the young man murdered in York the other night for his cell phone? Having your hand resting near or on your gun does nothing to enhance your auditory awareness. What makes you think that someone sneaking up on you to take your gun will restrict himself (herself) to just grabbing it and trying to get it out of your holster? It would be much easier just to knock you on the head and at the very least stun you.

Hearing what is going on around you is a valuable asset, and one that should not be traded away lightly. While I do not agree at all with the way you were treated by the officers, they had a valid point when it comes to someone coming up behind you. Next time it could be a gangsta who does not care a whit for your life, and who might just kill you for your MP3 player as much as for your gun. Think about that the next time you voluntarily place yourself in auditory isolation.

[TXDMERC73]

That was a waste of phillys taxpayers dollars IMHO- 3 officers = 15 bucks an hour divide it by 1/4 of an hour that wasted the city 14 bucks. I doubt it an illegal person would OC in the town of philly he will have a automatic one way ticket to the slammer.

all they had to do is ask for your permit and check it then send you on your way that would be under 3 minutes.

you handled the situation well, that was really nerve racking when the cops dont respect peoples consitutional rights when they are doing it legally. rep for you!

[dc dalton]

Well considering all the factors and the major attitudes by * cough cough * Philly's 'finest' I have to say you did a HELL of a lot better than I would have. That much attitude thrown at me would have had my 'tude' into the red zone.

Your level of tolerance for bullshit and stupidity is admirable.

I do have to agree with Pennsy though, not sure having 'plugged ears' while OC is't IMO the best of ideas but you did note you 'cover' (as I do when unsure) that being said I will defer to your judgement, I wasn't there and I'm not you.

Now as to what may or may not need to be done? Again, don't listen to the talking heads that seem to feel you MUST do x, y or z ... that is your decision. Yes your rights were violated but as you noted talking on 'city hall' can be one hell of a PITA, can be expensive and mind numbing.

That being said the time has to come soon when Philly is 'taken on' and it may just be me or a few of us (I plan on going there in the next month and OC'ing downtown while the wife, a friend and I do some things) and if it's my ass 'up against the wall' I will make it my life's mission to make their life a living hell.

The time has come and we seriously need to make a concerted effort to shut the asshats from this city down once and for all.


But I digress