What size are these?

[mickey01023]

Just when I think I have seen it all. You are seriously buying shotgun rounds, that you are going to keep mixed in with your cornucopia of regular, less-lethal and tacticool breaching rounds, so that you can pick it up to teach some punk kids a lesson? What could go wrong with this genius plan?

Nothing can go wrong....

Just when I think i've seen it all you come out and post this.

A million fucking things can go wrong when your confronting someone with a gun. If the only thing that can go wrong has to do with a problem you see with the shells well then I got nothing to worry about.

Basicly I got a few people giving me shit because I don't want to kill someone.

Three different shotguns, a pistol grip, a persauder and one with a breaching barrel. I don't really see my self grabbing the wrong one in confusion, what could happen tho is I could grab the wrong one (thought i needed the slugs but grabbed the buck shot)

It was an example there aren't a group of punk kids breaking into cars or houses near me that I know of

I don't if any of you have played with them but they are ideal to have for home defense in my opinion. They will stop a threat in their tracks or make them retreat, less recoil than a .22 i'd say a little bit more than a bb gun and no report. If i'm in postion where deadly force is the only option, a headshot with these will be deadly. Soooooo why are they bad?

[mickey01023]

Mickey, what if we viewed this from the other end?

What if you had someone pointing a shotgun at you? Would you reasonably be in fear for your life? Or would you somehow, just know that his gun was loaded with "less than lethal" loads, and you are in no way, in fear for your life? Hell, they're rubber - they'll just bounce off, right?

Does the law that allows a citizen to use lethal force against an assailant specify he must KNOW that his life is going to be ended then and there, or does it allow him to reasonably fear for his life before using lethal force in his own defense?

All I'm sayin' is that the law allows me to defend with lethal force if I believe reasonably, I am in fear for my life. A shotgun pointed at me would more than amply qualify.

Flash

I'm not following you? Were talking about bad guy and good guy, what does that have to do with BG feeling threatening and legally fearing for his life and drawing on me?

If someone had a shotgun pointed at me.....well am i breaking the law or not?

Let's say i'm breaking into his house - if i notice I have a shotgun on me and he hasn't shot me i'm going to do what he says lol or since i'm a dirty criminal i'm going take a shot at him and finish my original criminal act or take off.

Not breaking the law like riding a bike down the road - if i'm not doing anything wrong like walking down street then it's a no brainer

I reread your post 10 times and i'm still not following

[mickey01023]

Well, the fact that he's assuming he'll have time to assess need and load the appropriate ammo is a pretty huge first misstep, IMO.

Of course, if he keeps separate guns loaded with different types of ammo, there's always the possibility of grabbing the wrong one under the stress of a threat.

Guns are loaded so I no need to worry about fumbling around in ammo cans.

[Former_Marine99]

I'm not following you? Were talking about bad guy and good guy, what does that have to do with BG feeling threatening and legally fearing for his life and drawing on me?

If someone had a shotgun pointed at me.....well am i breaking the law or not?

Let's say i'm breaking into his house - if i notice I have a shotgun on me and he hasn't shot me i'm going to do what he says lol or since i'm a dirty criminal i'm going take a shot at him and finish my original criminal act or take off.

Not breaking the law like riding a bike down the road - if i'm not doing anything wrong like walking down street then it's a no brainer

I reread your post 10 times and i'm still not following

It isnt that hard to understand. Now while I dont pretend to know all of PA's laws, I do know that there are instances where deadly force wouldn't be authorized. You used one of these instances in your scenario.

So, you use deadly force where it wouldn't be legal (teen breaking into your parked car), you shoot him in the chest with a rubber ball. He now can't retreat, so he feels that he must use deadly force against you in order to live. You have just crossed the line between good guy and bad guy, and now he kills you legally.

No one is getting on you because you don't want to kill someone. No sane person wants to kill anyone, it is not a fun feeling. It sucks, but it is better than being dead.

Smell what Im stepping in?

[bac0nfat]

I can see these being useful in a hostage situation when the attacker is in such close proximity that a stray pellet could hit the victim.

[Philbert]

Nothing can go wrong....

Just when I think i've seen it all you come out and post this.

A million fucking things can go wrong when your confronting someone with a gun. If the only thing that can go wrong has to do with a problem you see with the shells well then I got nothing to worry about.

Basicly I got a few people giving me shit because I don't want to kill someone.

Three different shotguns, a pistol grip, a persauder and one with a breaching barrel. I don't really see my self grabbing the wrong one in confusion, what could happen tho is I could grab the wrong one (thought i needed the slugs but grabbed the buck shot)

It was an example there aren't a group of punk kids breaking into cars or houses near me that I know of

I don't if any of you have played with them but they are ideal to have for home defense in my opinion. They will stop a threat in their tracks or make them retreat, less recoil than a .22 i'd say a little bit more than a bb gun and no report. If i'm in postion where deadly force is the only option, a headshot with these will be deadly. Soooooo why are they bad?

If you are not prepared to kill someone then don't point a shotgun at them.

[JayG23]

Basicly I got a few people giving me shit because I don't want to kill someone.

If you are not prepared to kill someone then don't point a shotgun at them.

Lack of desire does not equal lack of preparedness.

There is no mandate to complete the shoot once you begin. Considering the unknown - but assuredly large - number of incidents that didn't happen merely because a pistol was drawn and presented but not fired, it's not a sign of weakness or fear to allow for firing the shotgun without lethality.

What it is, in my opinion, is a nod to the fact that there can be scenarios where you have to fire but would prefer to 'pull your punch' so to speak.

Frankly, if I had an invader I would rather the outcome be the defeated perp being led out in cuffs than under a bloody sheet. Not only for the purpose of not having to carry that face with me, but also because I don't want the 'killer' reputation amongst the neighbors or their kids that play on all of the front lawns on my block. I'm prepared to walk that road, but I don't want to.

[Philbert]

Lack of desire does not equal lack of preparedness.

There is no mandate to complete the shoot once you begin. Considering the unknown - but assuredly large - number of incidents that didn't happen merely because a pistol was drawn and presented but not fired, it's not a sign of weakness or fear to allow for firing the shotgun without lethality.

What it is, in my opinion, is a nod to the fact that there can be scenarios where you have to fire but would prefer to 'pull your punch' so to speak.

Frankly, if I had an invader I would rather the outcome be the defeated perp being led out in cuffs than under a bloody sheet. Not only for the purpose of not having to carry that face with me, but also because I don't want the 'killer' reputation amongst the neighbors or their kids that play on all of the front lawns on my block. I'm prepared to walk that road, but I don't want to.

No sane person wants to kill, which is why I used the word "prepared" rather than "want". Nevertheless, you must be prepared to kill if you use deadly force, even though your desire is not to kill but rather to stop the threat.

Trying to walk the tightrope of incapacitating a threat by using force just short of lethal force is in my opinion a bad idea. Rubber ammunition can kill people, especially at close range (where most civilian defensive gun uses occur). IMO, using these rounds in situations where deadly force is not justified is a bad gamble - especially if you are relying on yourself to count how many rounds you can fire before the lead starts coming out.

[JayG23]

No sane person wants to kill, which is why I used the word "prepared" rather than "want". Nevertheless, you must be prepared to kill if you use deadly force, even though your desire is not to kill but rather to stop the threat.

Trying to walk the tightrope of incapacitating a threat by using force just short of lethal force is in my opinion a bad idea. Rubber ammunition can kill people, especially at close range (where most civilian defensive gun uses occur). IMO, using these rounds in situations where deadly force is not justified is a bad gamble - especially if you are relying on yourself to count how many rounds you can fire before the lead starts coming out.

Sorry I mistook your "prepared to kill" phrase as a judgement on mental state of readiness, and not as a judgement that someone who has the rubber ammo isn't physically prepared. As if the use of rubber was an attempt to wedge into a situation where lead would be too much, when it was really about being in a home defense situation where lead is allowed but the choice to use rubber is viable.

I still disagree with you, on the grounds that you mention that rubber ammo can and does possess lethal force at the typical close ranges of home defense. Not to mention that it is impossibly easy to be physically prepared to use lethal force with any firearm.

Lead is everywhere, it takes effort to be physically unprepared to kill when pointing a shotgun at someone, and even then the rubber counts as lethal in close range.

So, physically, the user of rubber ammo is still prepared to exert lethal force when pointing that shotgun.

[Philbert]

Sorry I mistook your "prepared to kill" phrase as a judgement on mental state of readiness, and not as a judgement that someone who has the rubber ammo isn't physically prepared. As if the use of rubber was an attempt to wedge into a situation where lead would be too much, when it was really about being in a home defense situation where lead is allowed but the choice to use rubber is viable.

I still disagree with you, on the grounds that you mention that rubber ammo can and does possess lethal force at the typical close ranges of home defense. Not to mention that it is impossibly easy to be physically prepared to use lethal force with any firearm.

Lead is everywhere, it takes effort to be physically unprepared to kill when pointing a shotgun at someone, and even then the rubber counts as lethal in close range.

So, physically, the user of rubber ammo is still prepared to exert lethal force when pointing that shotgun.

Agreed, and therefore I think it's folly to use rubber shotgun shells in a situation where you would not be justified in using lead. The example given above was to shoot someone breaking into a car.